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 Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?

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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:19 am

Rumour has it that banning exhaust power valves on bantams would be
a good idea. In the Three Sisters bar at the last meeting this was one of
the topics being discussed. As currently there isn't a power valve bantam it
is the time to do it - i.e. before someone does..

There was once a power valve bantam , but I don't think this still exists anyhow
It hasn't been racing in the club for 10/12 years.

The ban could not include exhaust water injection as a current bantam already
has that. But rotary valves(yamaha) guillotine valves ATACs KIPS could be
banned ??

Whats the view on the forum?
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175 Racer

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:58 am

I have in mind to build a 125 at some point, the only real reason for doing this is the challenge of an open field from a technology perspective. I would therfore prefer not to make any new restrictions to the 125 class if I did build one I would want to be able to consider an exhaust powervalve amongst other things :-)

JC
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Trevor Amos



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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:04 am

I find it somewhat perverse that, at a time when there are concerted efforts to encourage new comers to Bantam racing, that we could possibly allow a technology, that puts the 125 class further out of the reach of those very same people ?
Formula libre or Formula Bantam ? Look to the future, for all, not to the gratification of the few .
Banning should be instantaneous, there is no justification to allow the status quo !

Trevor .

P.S. I already have a PV. cylinder drawn up, lots of fabricating and machining, hardware in a drawer, ignition- rev counter- valve electronics available . Is it fair, or equitable ?
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Tim Cornish

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 am

You make a good point there Trevor - as a newcomer I/us "newbies" are bewildered by the amount of technology some other racers use, and is often perverse. I know I wouldn't technically have much say in what goes on but I'd feel going back to basics would be greater in attracting members to the club and to the sport itself. Perhaps running a newcomer class or something? I know it's not exactly racing on the cheap but at least it's a start.

Regards,

Tim
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:48 am

interesting views, on this subject- but this exhasust valve Im sure was actually banned some year back "perhaps Im mistaken", i agree its well out of the realms for the new starters, but I can see why someone would wish to progress from a 175 to a 125 with all options open.

I'm still the purest and don't agree with anything other than air cooled iron cylinders for all Bantam Racers,

The rest are just home built specials, well out of the reach or the normal new starter.

This OPINION is just that an opinion it doe not not mean my opinion is correct,!.

So if 125 cc is the open formula class it should be open, why not allow exhaust and disc valves "WHY NOT" or even the use of other makes of watercooled cylinders, for those to use who don't have the facilities to make/construct a barrel with extra ports, but where do you stop!!!!!! who knows -

Its my opinion rules should be fair, and followed in the spirit of the class, if you want an equal field ban water cooling, and leave the 175s to new starters - ? to get in fairly competitive without a Degree in engineering or work shop to suite.

Derek
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Mick Potter

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:59 pm

Hi Mike & All,

Way, way back in the 1980’s I started racing the then new 250 MZ class after a short break from racing to get married & bye our first home. I chose to race the MZ over the Bantam because the formula of the MZ class was stricter than that of Bantam racing at that time. In the 80’s I had the knowledge and experience to build a competitive Bantam, but not the engineering resources. With what knowledge & resources that I had I built a bike that helped me win the MZ championship in its second year. As we all know we never stop looking for an advantage and I already knew at that time that I was able to improve power within the MZ rules of that time by either building a disc valve induction or a crankcase reed induction engine. I DID NOT WANT TO GO TO THE EXPENCE OF BUILDING EITHER INCARNATION OF THE POSIBLE ENGINE. The MZ formula was initially designed to keep racing as cheap as possible as was the initial Bantam formula. Knowing that everything I Knew about engine tuning was already in the public domain I decided to propose a rule change at that year’s AGM. The proposal was that all induction on a MZ must pass through the barrel. The proposal stopped me & everyone else from having to go to the expense that is the result of chasing power. To my knowledge that rule stands to this day.


Back to the present. In the last 25 years Bantam racing has evolved tremendously. We now have two different engine sizes with different specifications in formula that produce bikes that are of comparable performance.

In the last 25 years the 125’s have gained (on various bikes, some more than others), retarding ignition, fully programmable ignition, separate ignition maps for each gear, electronically controlled power jets, Throttle position sensors, knock sensors, dataloging on many aspects of engine performance that include such things a cylinder head / coolant temperature, exhaust temperature and exhaust pressure sensors. Many people have engine simulation programs on their computers that cost more than a cheap Bantam. I am shore some other improvements will come back to my memory tomorrow (Mike I am shore you can name some more).

So to the question of do we ban power valves? All of the improvements that I have indicated above were developed after the introduction of the power valve. Therefore as later technology has not been challenged (unlike I did with the MZ formula) I Do not see how it is possible to retrospectively ban something just because no one has bothered to develop it on a Bantam.

Yes a power valve is more useful on a Bantam than probably any other racing bike because what we like to call a close ratio gearbox is just a STD gearbox in today’s world.

There has NEVER been a restriction in the development (I stand to be corrected from my peers) of the 125 class. The 125 class has what I believe in legal terms to be called Grandfather Rites.

It may be that someone will develop a power valve Bantam. That Bantam may be a limited or a roaring success. If the bike is more successful than bikes with later developed technology are we going to ban it just because no one bothered with it in the past?

If the 175 class starts to become uncompetitive in comparison to the 125’s then the 175 will need to be slightly re defined. The 125 class is the senior class therfere it has grandfather rites.

Let the 125 class run free & adjust the 175 class to keep up.

Mick.
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mike redhead

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:13 pm

Good Morning folks,

Most elouently put Mr Potter, a very compelling argument, I stand with Mick (P) on this one, the only addition I would make to the debate is this, if by default the ranks of the 175 class are swelled then this can only be a good thing for Bantam racing in general ( in my opinion)

Regards,

Mike R
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:57 am

So I gauge from the few replies on this subject that everyone currently
Racing is happy with the current rules, may I suggest we leave the rules
alone for 5 years or a pre determined date? I feel its more important that
listen to current racers perhaps more than folk who have long since retired
or new starters who no intention of starting.. No offence is meant by this
post . Kind regards Mike
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:42 am

I agree with Mick Potter, the 175 rules are not as restricted as they should be, 5 years is too long for a review and should be reviewed each year, I feel we should stick to the spirit of the 175 class rules, new starters and for those without a machineshop in their back garden.
for me the rules should have a slight modification,
no bridges/no welding in the barrel on water cooled heads/barre specials alloy of cast iron.
1 exhaust
2 transfers
1 inlet port
no special cranks either
and NO welding round the transfers

I agree 125 should be left open but all water cooled engines be either banned or opened up to any barrel, this way if you dont have the facilities and 50 years machining race Bantam engines, as they are simply too difficult to make for every one out of cast iron, those winning a championship have to race air-cooled from that point on-wards. !

I say to all new starters "What ever you do" please do not get pushed to start racing too soon, you have all the time in the world, the whole motor must be right before you put a bike on a track, as its my opinion that I'm sure is shared by all, that trying to start racing a bike before the bike is ready, and or having a degree in engineering aerospace its better to wait, don't allow those waiting to see you, "take your time", as you are simply wasting you time and money if you rush or allow others to push you into making the big jump, before you are really ready,

So take your time, that way you will spend more time on the track and having a pleasure tinkering in the shed rather than a nightmare rebuild in the shed or between each race.

Derek

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Ned

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:36 am

Derek wrote:
5 years is too long for a review and should be reviewed each year,
Derek

The possibility of the rules being changed every year would deter any enthusiast. I can't imagine anyone wanting to spend their money and winter months working on a project knowing it could be banned at the end of the season.
Even formula 1 teams with all their money and resources have problems adapting to rule changes and there's huge rewards as an incentive.
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:52 am

Hi Ned

you raise an interesting point Ned, I complement you on its eloquent delivery, no problem with that view at all, I have a sightly different view, on F1. they don't have the issues Bantam Riders /builder do.

The top 12 to 14 on the grid are never split by more than a seconds or two, and most of the advantages in engines diapered yeas ago, it's all in the Aero packages.

But they do review them not just each year but after every race. Things change all the time in an attempt to keep things fair and competitive, I think there current system and approach is excellent, who whats to see some joker disappearing into the distance at every race just because he has the resources other don't have, ! or he can make something others can not, that's in my opinion is what a formula is all about.

back to F1 each year in advance, of the coming seasons, Engines specs do change, so do the ECU'S, and to gin with during their development at almost every race, until they got a decent formula where all things considered things seemed to be a level playing field, allowing a race spectacle

If it were down to me I would not allow Adrian Newly to work for one team for more than two seasons!, I WOULD do the same in the Bantam class !! I'm not sure I would get away with it though, when Jensen won his championship he disappeared in the first 5 races but by the end of the season he was back in his usual place, and some rules had indeed been modified. don't take too much notice of my "hot air blower and wishful thinking.

kind regards Derek
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john bass

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PostSubject: power Valves...   Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:08 am

"Racing On The Cheap" -- ROTC -- as oft quoted by Roy Bacon went adrift when Water-cooling was permitted.

Which of the budding `Stars´ could do it themselves or afford to have the skilled work  done for them? Then ROTC  went floundering still further with Fairings entering the scene... but they were far cheaper than the water-cooling mod. Then came the Reed-Valve which was not all that difficult to instal... Yet already had the ROTC theme almost drowning....  


All three improved race speeds and made the Bantam more of a racing motorcycle -- but then what did the Bantam racers really want:-
       (1) A Proper racing motorcycle -- with a degree of reliability -- to race?
       (2) An Historic Racer with a good Old British  name and the reputation of a very special motorcycle racing club behind it?.
   Or (3) ROTC -- with no chance of ever being really competitive.

(3) ROTC Will have positively  drowned if a Power Valve is allowed in... and (1) is probably the best way to go (as was mentioned on here) if a youngster (or oldy for that matter) wants to go motorbike racing as cheaply as possible...

Maybe it is already too late  say of the 125, "This is a Bantam Racer ..."

...and I wonder if the additional mechanical complication is worth it when the reliabilty factor is weighed into the equation?
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: Power Valves - should they be banned on 125s?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:35 am

Derek we have to run with what we have not with we haven't!
We cannot reinvent the wheel or the Bantam class the only things
we can ban is the things that people haven't done within the current
Bantam rules. So my next step to less weight will be carbon fibre
tank seat and fairing - all currently legal within the rules.

Its a bit like trick digital ignitions - I'd ban them but its too late they
are currently in use and different in the gears and lauch control - all too
late - opportunity missed.

Newstarters - if they wait too long there may not be a bantam class
to race in? If you don't support the racing it will die. I feel if you can not
go from having thoughts about racing a bantam to actually racing a Bantam
Within 2 years chances are you will only ever talk about it but never 'do' it ..
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john bass

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PostSubject: Power Valves...    Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:46 pm

Mike! I read you clearly and  go along with what you state;  You current Bantam racers do have  an excellent 125 race machine (Fairing, WC, Reed  and all...) with a Formula that can be bent enough  to make the Machine even a better racer --  which is a quality of perfection  I envy and could never achieve -- way back then...

...but we started and continued with the idea that we were Racing On The Cheap:  we had Families, Time-commitments  and Financial responsibilities which meant we were not going spend time & money  unnecessarily on our hobby.

  I mean it is really laughable -- now, isn´t it?  -- to tell that Icarus-1 cost 80pounds (& Icarus-2 a mere 40quid -- but  was very unreliable) and although Icarus-1 was not competitive in Senior races it was a winner & place-maker  in the Intermediate Class -- and enormous fun... A good Bantam race machine at that time -- air-cooled, no fairing nor reed-valve -- could be built at a cost of about 100 to 120 quid.

A lot of Bantam racers of those late 60s´ -- early 70s´ were the same:   quite content to build a Low-Cost Bantam and `race´ it because  -- then --  it was most enjoyable to compete in a Class (Novice or Intermediate) where they knew there was a chance of finishing in the first three -- as well as actually finishing the race.

That  of course means I must come back to what I´ve said before which you²² personally said is not possible:
a Third Formula:  a  Class of Bantam Racer without fairing, water-cooling and any other costly attachments.

I can hear it before I finish here:    Oh JayBee! -- how wrong you are -- it is not only a step backwards, there´d be no takers -- would-be-Bantam-enthusiasts would feel ashamed to mount a naked Bantam....

Yet I still  say:      For Bantam racing to live on -- it is the only way....!

Oooh  -- that hurt!

²²-- if it was not you, Mike, then I apologise profusely --- Tell us more about the Water-Injection job.  I did it in Canada with a diesel engine -- never for racing -- for less-exhaust-pollution in American underground mines. It worked well at 20% water 80% diesel and fuel consumption was less!!!  Of course it is nothing new. British WW2 aircraft used it -- squirting water into the mmanifiold for take-off power wnd the Messerschmidt with fuel injection had water/diesel  emuslion direct into the combustion chamber.

PS...Pee-Ess -- This might sound daft:   Does a Racing Bantam -- look like a Bantam?

Does it even look like a BSA?

It looks like any other Japanese racing motorcycle. And if parts are running out and replicas have to be made surely the writing´s on the wall -- only a biilionair could save it from total elimination-- so get looking for a money bags who is bonkers about Bantams  who will get lot of lovely parts made....


Cheers!
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