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ROBBIE

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PostSubject: Fairings   Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:12 am

Hi Tim and all
I have been racing for sometime now and raced faired and unfaired bantams.
you say cheap racing well no racing is cheap. but  I can see were you are coming from. My veiw is wen a bike goes down the road you want to be as far away as possible not traped under the bike wen you drop a bike with a fairing nine time out of ten it slides on the fairing  stopping damage to handle bars tank seat footrest gear lever etc wen unfaired damage can be  which means unrepairable
you dont race. which you have already paid for. so I feel that fairing are savng money making bantam racing safer and more afordable also a good place to put bantam stickers telling people that it is a bantam. fairing have been used on bantams for forty years now why do we need to change? how about asking the racers that are currantly racing there veiws stop living in the past and promote the future of bantam racing cheers
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john bass

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PostSubject: Don´t need to change Robbie...   Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:26 am

Don´t need to change anything Robbie. The Championship Class of Bantam should have all mod-cons and go as far as the formula allows -- and look, as so many say, LIKE A RACING MOTORBIKE... not like the heap you see on the left there.

What else can we old fogeys do but live in the past?  Would you rather we crept away and never said a word on here -- say YES and you´ll never hear from me again.

I am pleased that Bantam racing has survived this far.  When the club vanished in the nineties I thought that was the finish.  I am not negatively criticising any of you modern Bantam racers -- I´d just like to see something other than depleting grids as has been reported lately.

What I had suggested was that a Novices class formula with everything back to as cheap as can be made   might attract more newcomers but a novices bike formula has already been annhilated out of the picture. If the saving by having a fairing saves money as you say it does then a Novices LOW COST Bantam class could & would still include fairings...

Like I said, it was suggested and then so neglected that it was obvious NO ONE wanted such a formula.

  Fom all responses so far  there  is going to  be NO change -- it´ll be the same 16 to 20 riders slugging it out until such time as the costs also cripple  that   -- to the point of no return....

  I was actually surprised at Alan´s costing which also included fairings and super-duper ignition systems being as cheap as the crappy stuff we used.

And the comment of a competitive Bantam costing less than 2,000 quid suggests that I don´t know what  I am talking about --

-- which is probably true....

Someone suggested that 1968 prices should be multiplied by 50 to bring them comparable with today so if you took the 80 it cost for Icarus-1 Bantam in 1968 -- today would be 4,000 so the 2000 quid is really low-cost. More likely the comarison should 20 times as much as 1968 which would mean 1600 quid and since Icarus-1 was not Senior, Champion competitve a really good Racing Bantam ought to cost 1800 to 2000 quid.

So, what about it then? What do these Championship level Racing Bantams cost?  

But it is the other costs to go racing that make me shudder ... Since you put out the suggestion that we  old hasbeens should ask current racers ... I´ll ask, along with the above  -- What does it cost to go racing a Bantam for a weekend? Total cost I mean, grub and all...

All the best,



Cheers!
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ROBBIE

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:13 am

Hi John
I would say about £450.00 all in with fuel and food for a weekend
as for the fairing that's only MY view these no reason if someone wants to race with out a fairing can
no a please don't go away
need to tell someone about my big flywheels been on full size ones all this year
[img][/img]
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dansofield550

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am

I took 50 quid with me for lydden and had three left by Sunday evening, I used 15 litres of fuel for something like 30 odd laps, we took snacks and such like, that cost 20 , the entry fees were 100, although I had that paid for me(sponsored by work) bantam racing is still cheap, stumbling blocks are building(making modifying) and knowledge, but these are so readily offered,
maybe new comers aren't made aware enough of that before they go away and home and think to themselves how the hell am I gonna make that!
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:07 pm

just lost a bit on our costs, trying again

OK Dan and robbie are both right,
Rob if you fall off with a fairing on a BANTAM, it may well cost less, than if you had a fairing on, but it does depend on the speed you fall off at. and the type of fall  or if the bike hits something but genrally at lower speed or if it slides yes, it will be less!

Dan is also correct A bantam to race costs a lot less, but I think £450 per meeting sound quite a lot, but I do not doubt it, it just depends on your set up, but this does not take account of the bike replacement parts costs per meeting - I'm sure

In both the teams and riders I support at BSB, our costs are ? for innstance.

125 moto-star championship we are not plying at it, and currently holding 3rd closing in on second, we have had a win and a few podiums but the MOTO 2 fro the GPpaddock have found their way into this class, simply making a mockery of the class, to combat this an (RSA) the the pole setting Mahindra Bike has come in its roomered we have secured, our rider the ex matinaz team bike (not true although we are trying) to try and compete with the 250 single 4 strokes, (that are not more power full but loads more torque and over a much wider spread, The 250's moto 2 cost 100k to be competitive and at this a little faster than us, .4 to 8 second per lap in race, they are faster in quali as our rider is a racer not a qualifier. you can buy a 250 std MOTO 2 Honda for 20k but it will be blown away by even some of the std 125cc 2strokes.  

in our teams 1 our bike a Aprilia RSW bike cost us 65,000 euro new, it included two weeks at Aprilia for our Engineer, sadly not me! no time, then another 16,000 euros for wheels suspension and front forks, my favorite bit twin discs up front but this cost a great deal, our per meeting costs are a staggering £3,000 to £3500. This includes dry's tyres, but not wets add another £500 for enough wets, if it rains, Brands Oulton twice

in team 2 we have a zx10 1000 super-sport- in comparison its cheap at 30k for the bike including all the must have bits, and not new! an ex MSS team bike, per meeting costs only £1500 including tyrs. Interestingly we have no race at BSB Assen round, so I have asked if its possible to put Ash on a super bike "for just one meeting", the costs are staggering, tyre bill alone £5,000. not sure we have enough in the budget to do it, and it depends on the clauses for accident damage etc and the lease costs.

How some riders /teams make money out of this sport is beyond me -but the organizers do.  

so BANTAM RACING as you can see is very CHEAP and affordable, so make sure you keep it that way.
ban water cooling, and make it part of the rules to run NO FAIRING OR THE TODD/FRED TYPE as they were intended to.
no more than 1 exh 2 transfer, I would allow reeds as scott had them, and they make bantams easier to tune and ride.

water cooling was needed the TT, and its not an argument for! anymore, but why !.

coming back to costs- I dabbled in club 125/600 and twins racing, a little while before I returned to Bantam racing, the set up cost even at club are staggering, just to get a bike that is competitive to the track. But the running costs are a lot less with a 4 stroke. Riding round mid pack and at the back, it was not the same feeling I ever had racing my Bantam that I made it what it was in the garage with dad, we tuned it tuned I sold both bikes after a few meetings for more than I paid for the 600, but lost  small fortune on the 125, my Bantam is possible forth more than both bikes put together but I would never sell them.

I would say my return was a mid-life crisis, "but I'm not finished yet"- I got out of just two season back on a Bantam so much enjoyment/ fun, I just don't remember smiling the way I do when I come pack into the paddock after all my races on a Bantam, even finishing is such an achievement, all done by me and dad, and a bit of help by those in and around, never smiled like that on the other classes, I'm just honing a few more skills, so my advice to those building/ wishing to race, GO FOR IT, JUST do it. , you will never forget the feeling, and you could get run over by a bus tomorrow, don't sit in you hospital bed in years to come, saying "if only", just go for it. I wish I had the time to do it all the time, but I don't.
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:26 pm

ult.
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john bass

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PostSubject: Thanks Robbie...   Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:39 pm

Thanks Robbie -- lovely pic of another naked Bantam, who was it?  Ned with his lucky scarf --by any chance? Before he made his own skirts?

Oh for another flood of bigger flywheels ! I am all for another dose of flywheels and clutches as torque-converters(which they are)  -- and whacking great flywheels....

The costs are enormous. Entry fees extortionate although Dan´s mention is about half of what my son said he was paying for his riders a decade back.  As I see it, to be Bantam competitive one needs to be a skilled artisan with  the free use of a machine-shop and welding facility and have a rich relative behind the scenes....  


Last word on skirts (honest!) -- My crash wearing a skirt for the first time, at Snetterton, of course, was not quite as you explained Robbie  because like a dozy idiot I didn´t slide off,  I went into the bank just after the bridge having gone vertical after losing it... As well as being completely OUT,  I had a cut above my right eye caused by the fractured screen and a nasty cut in my left knee by the broken, brand-new fairing´s fibre-glass -- both requiring stiches. Didn´t feel any of it until next day, of course....

However I did race Bantam  for another 2 seasons wearing the fairing... Andy´s 250 ABS also had a skirt so if I was going to race at all -- at LOW COST -- it had to be encased in skirt & nickers.

That is the secret of being able to race without being a financial burden on your loved ones -- find a sponsor... Andy Boyle was my surprise saviour. My wretched racing habits must have cost him a fortune.

Lets have a word of affection for the sponsors. The late Wobbleyman (Colin Aldridge) sponsored race-hungry waifs and his spendthrift attitude helped many on their way to become pro-racers. Slick did too, until he realised how much big-money his `hobby´ was gobbling up....

All the best,

Cheers!

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Edward Pickering

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:53 am

John,

I could be wrong but I think the picture maybe Robbie.

Kind Regards


Eddie
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dansofield550

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:14 am

that'll be the good'o'days!! Wink 
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michaelbrown

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:05 am

Im going to exspress my view on this as some people make me laugh.... I have been racing nearly 6 years now and in the first 3 years i fell off ATLEAST once a meeting due to being young and inexperianced...
not only did i save alot of damage to my bike engine/frame but i feel that without a fairing on my bike.. my bike would of dug in to the tarmac alot easier and i wouldnt of come off with just bruises

Derek as for cheep racing how can you Suggest to change the rules that much? No1 would be out racing as everyone would be illegal..... New engines would have to be made just to comply with the rules so not only would alot of money have to be spent but alot of time :/
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john bass

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PostSubject: Fairings...   Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:51 am

Right Michael! obviously you learnt,  "How to fall off ..." which is what we used to get told in the army when riding army motorcycles that didn´t have fairings.  Guess I forgot  the rules -- I should have just let it slide away... ....

There´s nothing wrong with fairings -- they make a racing motor cycle look like a racer -- particularly the Bantam. I just think it might be an attraction to Newcomers to have a formula that really is Bantam and low cost.

I should not have bothered saying that because just no-one wants such a poor looking thing like Icarus-1 these days.

Just by the way -- how much does a fairing cost these days? Mine was 15quid in 1970 with a 25% rebate....

For sure when you look at what happens to the "Competitive" Bantam crankcase -- cut and welded with enlargements for bigger transfers and stud spacing increased  and the water-cooling of the barrel and head plus reed-valve and all the other fantastic bits -- not to mention crank, rod and piston -- it is a lot of skilled work which must cost   a bomb -- unless someone does it for you for FREE!

Cheers!
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dansofield550

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:25 am

A Fred replica is £125,  not been involved long in the bantams, but everyone  outside of the racing that's seen my bike at work etc,not one has said its too expensive, they may said they don't have money, its not the same as its too costly, money needs to be prioritized and some wont put bantams/ hobbies/ fun first, I know well with two ankle biters myself.
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ted

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PostSubject: Fairings   Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:36 am

I agree with Robbie at about £450 a weekend for the weekend but would add to that tyres, chain, piston rings, plugs, gear box oil (every meeting) visors, van running costs, and I have most likely left things off. That's not trying to put people off starting because it is the most fun you can have!!!!!!
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john bass

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PostSubject: Phew!   Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:12 pm

Phwew! money money money!!!

A fairing for 125 quid -- can´t be bad because mine should have been 20 and I got it for 15 which means the Fred fairing is 6.25 as much whén we expect everything to be 15 to 20 times now , as much as in 1970....

Of course, if you raced an 80 Quid Bantam (Icarus-1 in that picture)  in 1968 thro to 1973 and only changed the tyres once in that time you would not expect to be competitive in the Senior Class but even so it WAS racing WHEN in among the Intermediates and was enormous fun... particularly when up against my chief opponent Wobbleyman Aldridge.

Must stop it or I´ll be robbing a bank, forging my birth certificate (again!), buying a proper racing Bantam (with a skirt) and coming over for Cadwell -- What with ponsy clutch starts and the easy run at the hill I might make a good showing -- on a fast Bantam, naturally.

Yaaaaawwwwwnnn!


PS -- Any offer of the loan of a bike???? (I promise not to bend it...) ....
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Edward Pickering

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:24 am

Good Evening All,

From our limited experience the prices sound about right plus you can't put a cost to the advice and encouragement you are give while there.


Kind Regards


Eddie
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john bass

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PostSubject: Fairings   Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:33 am

Right Eddie -- professional consultancy costs a bomb. Bucksheesh on Bantams....

With their glorified Professor-Doctor titles here in Germany some are living high-off-the-hog as the saying goes and frequently it is crud advice they give and very occasionally there´s one like Ross Braun (F1 cars) who contributes something worthwhile like KERs.

Cheers!
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afm160

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PostSubject: Fairings.   Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:25 am

A Fairing is a mobile advertizing hoarding it protects some of the bike in case of a fall but it does have another use which is streamling
less aerodynamic drag equates to a higher top speed with less engine power needed to achieve it. as i run more fibre glass than most i can also say it is another area of experimentation for the rider /builder. For example a rear hugger has been proven in tests to increase speed and that is just a glorified mudguard. a front mudguard can increase cooling or wreck it completely as i proved this year.
To say we go back to how bantams were is a move in totally the wrong direction and only possible if the tracks go back to how they were no bus stop chicanes, bantam tuning has evolved to cope with this start stop racing i just wish my weight had. the changes are acceleration is better brakes are better top speed is down(highest record top speed for my mid pack running bantam was 93MPH best lap time on this track achieved with a lower top speed). costs per meeting run at about the 400-600 per two day meeting if nothing serious goes wrong which makes a fairing a cheap item.

Andy
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john bass

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PostSubject: Fairings...   Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:45 am

I was not saying GO BACK to no fairings Andy -- Bantam Racing Fairings are here to stay for eternity -- or as long as Bantam Racing lasts, which -- to my mind -- is shortened by cost. I was SUGGESTING that if there was a formula within the Bantam formulas for a real cheap Bantam where the `Racing On The Cheap´ Bantam might attract a few more to take up with Bantam racing -- with a trophy for Naked Ones actually racing, instead of not racing anything at all, might have attracted a few more ?

Passing water against the wind -- I be!
I was shot down from all directions -- there are cheap fairings to be had and some riders can get through a racing weekend at far less than Robbie´s quote of 450 quid.

I shall creep away and hide for a while.

I must admit Icarus-1, here on the Avitar does not look like a racing motorcycle but when I ´fell off it at Snetterton and Lydden it really felt like it.

Go well and keep well,
Cheers!

JayBee.
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:05 am

Ref changing circuits (chicanes etc) and changing shapes of Bantams.
In the 70s and 80s most of the bantams had long tanks and seats over
the back wheel for a stretched and streamlined riding position - Body parts
tucked in all. The later bantams that I've seen tend to go for short wheelbases
short tanks a seat moved further forward (weight over the front) and a riding
position that is more elbows and knees as a result.
Are the two linked? or is it just fashion?

I have my own opinions how about you?
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john bass

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PostSubject: Interestin Point...   Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:16 pm

Interesting point Mike P ... You see on my avatar the posterior is over the rear suspenion unit and yet I seem to be crowding the front of that ghastly*** looking Icarus-!.

51 inches I think the wheelbase was...

***Mustn´t say nasty things about Icarus-1 -- as the bishop said to the actress:  "... it gave me some good rides m´dear..."  Only Inter...s of course! Fact is it would broadside in the wet -- and did at Llandow in the wet on 19-5-1973 -- many times -- without dropping as so many did that day. AND! Icarus-1 was wearing a skirt that day -- streamlined Fairing to you!

The great Sticky Mick even fell off on the way to the starting grid...!!

Hasn´t anybody got the results of that day´s racing ...?   I´d really like to see the Inters´ results   in print. Oh! what the heck -- they are on my little pot (that sits on my computer cheering me up when I get depressed about advancing years and all that old crud -- oh pooh, whirr´s mee teef....??

So how long is yours, Mike?

Wheelbase -- I mean.

Go well and keep well,

Cheers!
JayBee --- nearly BEEN!
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PostSubject: evolution   Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:53 am

picking up from mike, i think bikes have evolved to match tracks and riding styles have changed to match our riding heroes although there will always be personal preference. i still have not worked out how to get a bike to be shorter and turn quicker and then stretch to tuck in. unfortunately i grew up in an era when most riders stayed pretty well tucked in. Phil Read knee out slightly (me) , Hailwood tucked in (michael brown) and then Kenny Roberts added gaffer tape to his knee and we got the start of knee dragging (most riders). We also had in Bantam racing the shoulder in position(Pete Tibbits) . As for hanging a foot out i have to admit to doing it but it was due to forks locking in the fully compressed position and then hitting more bumps so staying on was the priority.
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:07 am

Yep years ago we had lots of very different circuits with lots of different
corners and cambers etc and a lot of fast corners too but circuits we race
on now were either built with slow (safe) corners (new Anglesey Ty Croes) or historical circuits which
have fallen foul of the Mickey Mouse chicanery (Mallory, Cadwell). Three Sisters of course is (nearly)
all Mickey Mouse but that is what makes it so good (different) ask Mick Potter! Currently Darley Moor
is our fastest (speed wise) circuit ask Ian Scutt and Lydden is an un-spoilt classic.

So how does this effect our next bantam build (if at all)? I don't know what a standard bantam wheelbase is
but quoting Dave Amos (circa 1973 Castrol Motorcycle Racing book) -

"The best basis for a 125cc Formula Bantam racer is a 175 frame. The main loop has to be retained, according to the formula, but frame strengthening and lowering of the subframe is essential, as too is lengthening of the swinging arm."

All interesting stuff?

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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:39 pm

Courtesy & Property Of Trevor Amos.



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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:38 am

None other than the Imperial Wizard, Chris Rogers, offered these words of wisdom , way back in around 69 and it remains a good basis to consider the construction of a Bantam race frame . 21st century GP 125 machines come in a little shorter in the wheel base and with a higher front wheel weight bias. However, there are installation restraints with a Bantam frame loop and a Bantam engine weighs considerably more than, say, a Honda, so judicious thought must be applied if considering more contemporary design dimensions .

Whilst it is gratifying to see, again, some of our old attempts at promoting Bantam racing as a cheap way into racing, it is also annoying to be miss quoted . At no time did either Dave or myself advocate, per see`, a longer swinging arm for the D7 frame. This confusion arose from poor editing of what was a much longer piece from Dave where it was revealed that a new frame was in construction to supersede the existing one . This new one had the engine moved forward , by altering the front down tube, and the whole engine both tipped up a touch at the rear and lifted higher to enable the exhaust to clear better . The swinging arm pivot point was also brought forward to maintain a reasonable distance from the front sprocket to the pivot point, to ease chain loading. A new, longer swinging arm was fabricated to maintain the original wheelbase, and it was only this feature that made it into print, but in the wrong context ! In the greater scheme of things it made little real difference but it does illustrate that even at our modest level, some of those in the reporting and publishing world will print just what they please be it accurate or not!
Castrol did pay us for our sins and the Bantam world did receive good publicity , but we did discover later that we weren't the only disgruntled contributors, so that salved our smarting just a touch ! Oh, and we did receive a complimentary copy each !!

Trevor






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Trevor Amos



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PostSubject: Re: Fairings   Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:50 am

As a sub text to the above, Ken Sprayson has a terrific book out, aptly titled, The Frame Man , it`s full of stirring incidents from his life in frame designs and repair for the great and good of the racing world, and many other fields of tubular design work. Amazon will be pleased to take your order, and you`ll have a great read .

Trevor
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