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les2012



Number of posts : 123
Registration date : 2011-12-15

PostSubject: nicasil plating   Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:00 am


Hi All.
Is there any Bantam riders/ tuners out there that have had experience with Nicasil plating done on their original Bantam / cylinder engine?. If so I would be grateful for any information as I'm hoping to lift JS2 to the next level.

As yet JS2 has not been shown it's true potential, maybe 2015 will prove it's worth.

Les 2012

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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: nicasil plating   Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:58 am

Hi Les I know of 2 nicasiled bantams Alan Brown had one and Nick Bramley is currently running Rex Caunts nicasiled 175 engine both of which run alloy barrels, not sure if you can nicasil a cast iron barrel?
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john bass

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PostSubject: Nikasil ...   Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:19 am

Nikasilled liners used by Porsche in their air-cooled alluminium engine worked fine but were the reverse for Jaguar. Many Jaguar engines had to be replaced -- within a year of manufacture -- because the nikasil degenerated having piston rings scuffing on aluminium. Problem: sulphur in the fuel which when combined with condensation from intake air produces sulphuric acid... In some ways you can compare the silicon lining of an aluminium frying pan with what a nikasil lining does in an alumnium engine barrel, once the very thin surface has gone -- its back to aluminium.

I wonder how much sulphur is in the higher octane fuels? -- I know there was a legal limit for diesel...? DIN limit was 0.2% ....


OK -- OK! So that doesn´t help Les very much but it does point to getting the job PROPERLY done. I expect the avoidance of sulphuric acid forming in the cooling/cold engine must be an aid to the prevention of the problem.

Re the nicasiling (or nikasling) of a cast-iron barrel?
I really cannot see the point except that the ring-to-bore friction is greatly reduced but this could get us into the optimum piston-ring-&-bore-finish argument with perhaps the Dykes ring getting a mention....??

The Walsh Bantam used a single, 60thou thick ring -- frequently changed between practice & racing -- and was on a 16:1 compression ratio with methanol as fuel. The fact that it was very high revving could be attributable to low losses to friction....

Cheers!

JB for John-Boy...
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les2012



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PostSubject: nicasil plating   Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:42 am

Thank you Mike and John for your reply to my post, interesting to read your post John, I learn something new now and then. Now, I had a brain wave and looked in the mirror and said " Les you plonker why don't you speak to the people that do the work" so I phoned Langcourt uk in Weston-Super- Mare.

Had a long chat explained my question if nicasil plating can be applied to an iron barrel and the answer was NO. They had done experimental work but would not guarantee success so I've given up on that idea. The reason for this was the new liner has worn a bit quicker than I expected and thought maybe it would give JS2 a longer run, I've put in a new piston and ring, done a few mods, in the process of making a new pipe ect then all I'll need is a young 9stone experienced jockey to finish the job.

Les 2012

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john bass

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PostSubject: Me too Les...   Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:09 am

Me too Les... although I don´t need it at my length of longevity I push my grey-matter upwards from the feet (where it sank after falling off its gimballs) and think back on development work I have done way back in the mists of a long forgotten past. Doing that I often find something new and learn a bit more.

--It often happens on here...!

During my work on air-cooled diesel engines we used "Air-Cooled Automotive Engines" by Mackerle as one of our Bibles....

Mackerle was a very practical engineer and backed every theoretical proposition by good practical experiment -- with more of the latter than former... He gives a good example of engine friction losses that  shows the piston and rings as being the most evil at 56% ....
That is not the worst of it because he was talking about the engine speed being only 4,500rpm for this particular experiment. The curve of piston & ring losses is exponential  which means it is  increasing at a more rapid rate than Induction and Bearing Losses***. This, of course, means that if you are going for nearly 3 times that speed the curve is going to climb away from Induction & Bearing losses and could  be 60% to  70% by the time the speed is up around 11 to 12,000rpm.

Significantly 4-Stroke engine pistons are getting shorter all the time...

So I think the idea of Nicasil (or Nikasil) coated alumnium barrel-bore is a good one -- if it can be well done and afforded in terms of perhaps doing it several times a season. It must be better than changing the thin piston ring between practice and racing,  á la  the Walsh Bantam ...

Maybe Alan might mention a word here -- I know he spoke about his experience of  it with enthusiam  some time ago.

***Bearing losses are linear with speed ....

Good luck!

JayBee.
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alan
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PostSubject: Nicasil Bores   Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:18 pm

Hi Les,
Sorry I haven't been too active of late on here due to work pressures that have impacted on all parts of my life!
But if you talk to a company called Poeton Motorsport (use Google to find details) they have a coating that will rebuild an iron bore.
I use them for coating my own aluminium liners and they have been shot-proof! never had a piston siezure and they no longer wear out like early Nicasil coatings. If you go aluminium then this is the way to go!
I recommend you at least talk to Poeton and see what they can do for you.
Cheers,
Alan
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john bass

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PostSubject: Great, Alan ...   Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:24 am

Thanks Alan -- that´s great. What were your engine´s max revs? (if you don´t mind me asking...)

...and what about your ignition system?-- I seem to remember you telling something about that at Cadwell 2011 -- or was it, 2012...? In terms of non-seizure of pistons the ignition system is also a great contributor, so where the nicasil bore is concerned it may not have been the only factor in good reliabilty -- a variable ignition timing responding to combustion-chamber  temperatures definitely reduces seizure possibilities.

The fallability of non-stick of frying pans has recently been demonstrated by our own egg-fryer
which refused to let the pancakes or fried eggs slide much to my chief cook chagrin...! Whilst not wanting to belittle nicasil bores I think  that a `well tailored´ liner or barrel bore with a compatable ring  can work just as well -- although the piston ring needs to be regularly changed.
As an example: A  fine, cross-hatch honing in combination with a Taper-Facing ring can give a simialr result of low piston ring drag -- along with reliabilty.  

Having said that I wonder if anyone would like to come on board with their own suggestions of piston, piston-ring and bore combinations? My experience of air-cooled, 4-stroke, diesel piston ring and bore-hone-hatching went on for over a decade for other reasons than that of a racing two-stroke engine -- we had emissions & oil-consumption, as well as performance,  with which to contend. A Taper-Faced ring starts off with line contact and wearing quickly takes up the
bore´s irregularity quickly. Particularly with a pegged-ring not rotating as do 4 strokers.... By the time the ring-bore are run-in it is performing at optimum efficiency and the amount of actual race time would mean it would not have run-out of its optimum performance life as a `narrow`ring.  

Probably a stupid thing to say -- but you know I´ll say it -- has anyone ever tried nicasil (nikasil***) plating the piston? That is, with the bore as normal and the piston nicasil plated.
Both plated must surely be a NO-NO!? Two very hard surfaces rubbing against each other must bring trouble with the obvious happening that oil would not be held on the rubbing surfaces as it does with hatch-honing or with the alloy surface of the piston suitably treated.
I remember a very strange combination in the early Fifties of a knurled piston running in a coated bore which was long before nicasil came into the picture...
 
   I wonder if anyone one on here can give more enlightenment on that bit of auto history?    

***Mahle Piston & Ring company  were the first German company to get into plating liners and they called it Nikasil:  silicon-carbon suspended in nickel allowing it be electro-plated. This company assisted us in our long-winded,  piston and piston ring development. Happy Montreal days drinking Budweisers provided by Mahle´s engineers....

Cheers!

JayBee.
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les2012



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PostSubject: nicasil plating   Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:25 am

Hi Alan.
I got in touch with Aptec Ltd (Poeton Motorsport) and got the same answer as Lancourt UK:-. " Yes we can do it but cannot offer any guarantee" although their web page does say " we can also offer this coating on a choice of materials including cast iron", the coating being Aplicote 2000. They went on to say," if a problem in the process, unlike aluminium, nothing can be done to rectify an iron liner as any plating could not be removed"? ( they know more about this than I).

At the end of the day it's my choice so I'm leaving well alone, I'll continue with JS2 (development) and if it's come's to having another liner put in so be it.

Thanks for the help, hope to see you all next season along with JS2.

Les 2012.



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john bass

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PostSubject: Good luck Les...   Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:26 am

Good luck Les -- you´ll be honouring `The Scrooge´ and it is wonderful if his original bike "soldiers on" albeit a bit modified. Thoughts of Llandow are with John lying on top of me in Bottom Bend after we tangled and fell....!

Cheers!
JayBee.
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