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 QUB 500

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Trevor Amos



Number of posts : 864
Registration date : 2010-08-13

PostSubject: QUB 500   Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:52 am

Just a big Bantam really I suppose, even sounds like a Bantam! Only six cylinder fins, now that IS something to think about?

Google....QUB 500......Click on link to facebook, scroll right down and find the bike and Ray McCullough, video and stills.
Enjoy, I did!

Trevor

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ptibbitt125

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Age : 64
Localisation : Cambridge
Registration date : 2006-12-04

PostSubject: QUB 500   Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:48 am

Hi Trevor,

Thanks for bringing this interesting engine to our attention.

I remember attending a lecture given by Gordon Blair at the British Rail Technical Centre at Derby in 1971 or maybe 1972. Amongst other two stroke subjects, he covered the QUB 500, which was under development at the time. Primary transmission reliability was an issue. Due to the high engine torque produced, the alignment of the engine and clutch sprocket was compromised, causing excessive side plate friction in the chain. Gordon described the power lost as enough to power a 1 kW electric bar fire. E.g they were putting 1.5 hp into the chain!

I would have thought this misalignment could have been overcome, so maybe it was some other issue that stopped development.

All the best

Peter
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john bass

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Age : 88
Localisation : Bensberg, Germany
Registration date : 2006-12-06

PostSubject: Chain Misalignment...   Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:27 am

Hi Peter!
I heard that story of chain misalignment before and could not believe it then but I can believe the 1Kw loss to the chain out of line. In one of my old text books: "Theory Of Machines" by Thomas  Bevan there´s a worked example of a motorcycle with 88% transmission efficiciency. 12% torque lost to chains and gearbox! But then the book was written and published in 1936...

Why I found it unbelievable was that it is a terrific amount of energy loss and as heat must have things at very high temperature although I guess it is a matter of (direct) air-cooling with -- I guess --  exposed chain and sprocket....?  

My 4-Stud, 500cc Speedway JAP had a loose engine sprocket floating on a multi-splined cuff on the crankshaft which I thought was rather a crude way of doing things until I saw the various countershaft and gearboxe arrangement the JAPs were fitted into and those motors were known for their  high torque.  
   I would have thought the QU lads would have known of this arrangement which was well before QUB came into being but even then the misalignment was only a difficulty and never an unsolvable problem. Perhaps there was some Uni-politics going on and Gordon Blair meant that comment only for the academics who´d never applied a screwdriver or spanner and was desperate to keep the project financially afloat.


Cheers!

JayBee.
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Trevor Amos



Number of posts : 864
Registration date : 2010-08-13

PostSubject: Re: QUB 500   Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:14 am

The transmission problems of the 500 were eventually overcome with a cash injection from both Castrol and the local Ministry of Development, Local Enterprise Development Unit. Colin Seeley felt the whole enterprise was a poor business risk?
Greeves was involved in designing a new, unit construction case assembly with 5 speed gearbox and crucially, a gear primary drive. The power absorption problem of the chain primary drive was eliminated, and crank power was immediately increased. Other tweeks , and a Motoplat ignition helped to push power toward 70hp. Incredibly the whole machine with streamlining measured just 16 inches in width, so with 70hp pushing a machine that narrow it was extremely fast, A good Seeley/G50 500 could not live with it, with the QUB having 10hp in hand over the four stroke.
What started as a university engineering project for undergraduates to work on ended as the most powerful 500 single Britain ever produced.
Some years later Prof. Blair suggested that 75 hp would be easy to achieve, and going to water cooling, port development and a bigger carb could see up to 80hp!
Such a shame that the domestic politics involved killed the whole program on the cusp of fruition, but isn`t that so symptomatic of so many worthy domestic initiatives?
Mick Rooney of Irish racing Motorcycles bought the cycle parts and Colin Seeley lent a front disc brake! So in just 3 years this project went from drawing board to race track and exceeded its own design parameters of an engine weighing 50lbs and achieving 60hp.

Trevor



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john bass

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Age : 88
Localisation : Bensberg, Germany
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PostSubject: A Xmas Story follow-on from QUB and so on -- on & on...   Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:57 pm

Xmas story following ---
What a pity the Norton `Wankel´ went adrift too.

If the PRESENT Moto GP rules were in force in those days it would have been a Grand Prix winner -- remembering also, at that time, we had the strange WSB rule of Twin-cyl 4 strokers being up to a 1000cc and 4-cyl being limited to 750,,,

The torque of the Wankel arrangement was enormous and with the Americans protesting that the Norton-Wankel was a 3-stroke it was excluded from 500 GP. It could not be a 500cc GP contender because its capacity by virtue of its rotary piston arrangement had it neither as a 4 stroke nor a 2 stroke and consequently exceeded the 500cc classification of that time. It was so -- if you applied the strange American formula for GP 500s the Wankel was neither two-stroke nor 4-stroke and the Americans decided it must be a three stroke...

But the Norton Wankel did Slick (my son) a big favour whilst its development was still going on strong...

Before that, when Slick was working for Castrol Honda at Chiswick he had Hizzy Hyslops´s IoM record breaking Honda out on the Hendon by-pass (dual carriageway as part of the North Circular road) where he outspeeded a chasing BMW mounted speed cop who only caught him because Slick had to brake for red lights at Cambridge Circus roundabout. For 18 months Slick avoided the Beak by virtue of his being away on important work for Castrol at many International racing circuits but by the time it came for Hendon court to catch up and clobber him with `Dangerous Driving´ Slick was at Lichfield with the Norton crew. I was all for defending Slick with a three page dossier pointing out the numerous/various reasons Slick was NOT driving Dangerously including his ability to stop for the red light from around 145mph***but was stopped by the lawyer (Mum had got, at last moment for the poor lad), "Just keep quiet, please" said the lawyer and spouted untruths about the lad sending money to his poor Mother in the IoM etc... etc.. and the resurrection of the Great British Motor cycle industry to which the young Bass was contributing by being mechanic to TT winners such as Mr Joey Dunlop, Mr Steve Hyslop etc... etc... and the Norton team´s HGV driver etc... etc ... That his client -- young Mr Bass here** admits only to exceeding the speed limit (50 mph) ...
The magistrates were highly impressed, dismissed the Dangerous Driving charge and fined him 250 quid -- for exceeding the speed limit -- with a ban from driving for two months (it being end of season, so that the dear boy could be available as HGV driver in the new year)


*** The speed of the record breaking Honda was measured at 147mph in the IoM....

** Normally long haired and wearing casual gear he looked like an old-lag in the witness box with bowed, cropped-short head and wearing my Institute tie (which he never returned) and wearing a suit he must have borrowed....

The speed cop was in the court and when the sentence was announced, gasped out loud, went flaming red in the face and grasped the highly polished mahogany coaming of the court´s ancient railing hard enough to break a lesser wood to smithereens.

Xmas Cheers!

John-Boy.

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Trevor Amos



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Registration date : 2010-08-13

PostSubject: Re: QUB 500   Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:29 am

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Trevor Amos



Number of posts : 864
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PostSubject: Re: QUB 500   Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:01 am

The picture is of Colin Seeley holding, with apparent ease, the original 500 engine. It is easy to appreciate the compactness of the engine, the tiny crankcase, and the casting bulges of the dual transfer ports. You couldn`t do this with a G50 lump!
The later unit engine was equally compact as can be seen from the Face book pictures. Another example of what might have been given enough commitment and a bit of cash. Strange also to think that the exhaust system prof Blair developed for the G50 engine gave a notable power increase from 6,500 rpm up, adding 4hp at 7400rpm, with a much reduced fuel consumption, but was later discarded for the old shorter megaphone.
I find it a great pity that this simple but powerful two stroke engine is just a footnote in British 500cc racing history, but the G50 continues to have the nostalgic limelight!

Trevor
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