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 Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...

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bennion

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:25 pm



Hopyfully this might work. Thanks Tony!
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Mick Jones

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:20 am

I totally agree with you Ned and John, close racing is the be all and end all. Some of my best races ended up behind the winner or on me arse. Probably the best scrap i ever had was with Colin Hammond at Snetterton in a championship race in 78. Colin had a mile or two an hour on me but i was madder round the twisty bits and we squabbled for third place for twelve laps solid. Colin pipped me in the end but we were both exhausted by the sheer exertion of it all and totally over the moon at having such a brilliant race.
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Sport-Pics

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PostSubject: The win that never was   Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:43 pm

This is as close as it gets!!

1982 inter - novice race at Snetterton I was aboard the very quick ex Martin Perry (longstroke) Bantam. Colin Hall was my opponent that day on the reverse cyclinder Bantam (now ridden by Carl Coombs).

I hit the lead early on with Colin right on my tail and it remained like this for the remainder of the race. I was never one for looking behind and in this instance I didn't need to as I could hear Colin as he was never more than a foot away from me all the race.

Coming out of Russell's I could see the last lap flag being readied and was out as we flashed over the line for a last lap battle. In terms of speed there was nothing in it but I sensed that Colin might be holding back so I used my position at the front to my advange, after all he had to get by me.

Coming out of Russell's on the last lap I was under the paintwork and Colin the same. Up the straight I could hear Colin's bike screaming behind me, but I never looked back, just across to the guy with the flags. There was no sign of the chequered flag as we both flashed across the line. By this time I had sat up, so had Colin. I shrugged my shoulders as if to say "keep going" and we both put our heads down and headed off together where we had left off. I probably lost a bit of momentum as Colin had now got in front going down the Revett straight. A bit of late braking at the Esses saw me back in front but Colin was on the attack and by the entrance to the Bomb Hole was level again. You know what is coming next!! Yes, I lost the front end in spectacular style and ended up in the dirt, unhurt but demoralised. I had won that race and now I had slung it away. Only consolation was that I had broken the Inter lap record.

Rusty
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Mick Jones

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:37 pm

Guess who? Yep it's our old mate Bill. I'm in contact with him now via Email and he's invited me down to Oz for a visit. I'll definately try to go, i've always fancied Australia.
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john bass

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PostSubject: Our Bill in Oz...   Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:20 am

Hi Mick!
Great! His wife Joan has got a nice bike too. And the picture of Bill I have his stomach is a bit bigger than on your pic.
We must get him on this here site and he can tell us about his hairy sidecar racing in Oz... He was swimming in his own swimming pool at the weekend! The way some people live -- ey!?
All the best, JayBee.
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:26 am

Hey john

not see any posts from you in a while,

I believe we found what I think you call icarus "engine the one reed valve, not sure looked like it in its day.

wil try get some photo's on here.

Derek
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Jimmie



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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:34 am

Motorcycle Sport (Jan 1973) has a piece entitled ‘Still Racing On The Cheap’ about the Bantam Racing Club which contains the information that ‘there is considerable discussion within the Club on the subject of short-stroke engines. Some people became hot under the collar at one point but gradually all calmed down as it has become generally realized that the short-stroke engine is most definitely not a short cut to success in Bantam racing.

The shorter stroke is not a new idea ....a Bantam was raced in the late 50s with 54 x 54mm dimensions.’

Later on the newcomer is advised to tune for 8000 as this should give a much more useful spread of power with a top speed in the region of 80-85mph.

At one Snetterton meeting the fastest Bantam went through the speed trap at 95 with 13 riders attaining or exceeding 90. Some 45 riders were timed at speeds in the 80s. The record for the circuit was 81mph.

The piece was by R.H.B. Anyone able to put names to these initials
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john bass

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PostSubject: RHB ...?   Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:00 am

I´d say it was Roy Bacon.
He wrote "Racing On The Cheap" or some such title.
...
Well remembered -- my last time of seeing Roy. It was the parade of BRC´s
anniversary meeting at Snetterton in `81 and Roy was riding in his short
Wellies and as his floppy trousers rode upward it was an out-of-order sight to
see thin legs in wide welly-tops on a racing motorcycle with the owner looking so very serious going out onto the Snetterton race track...
It would not have surprised me to see him light up a pipe-of-baccy on his way around the circuit...

Wasn´t my fault I broke Ned´s Bantam, that day -- it was Dick Hunter sticking
two fingers up that did it... And I blame Bill Lawrence mostly (over a beer the
night before) -- because he insisted I take Niffy´s Bantam (Niff was on holiday)
and we couldn´t get it to run (Bill´s fault) which led into Ned lending his bike... .
Sorry Ned!

Good old days -- 10Bob practice at Brands -- can´t remember whether that
was for a 1/2 hour session or all-day. All day, I think with a bloke in flat cap
always with a home-made fag hanging from his lips who´d stop me and say,
"I gotta take a look at your helmet mate before you go out..."
In those days there were some weird helmets (pudden-basins mostly) and I wondered what Flat-Cap was really looking for....?
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john bass

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PostSubject: PS --   Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:00 pm

PS -- Roy was also the Chairman of the BRC -- and Jimmy, I remember heated committee arguments against water-cooling, going square, 54 X 54 and most particularly, streamlining -- before I became chairman and during....
...
All these introductions put up the cost. I fought for a `Low Cost Formula´ and lost.
I still wonder if it would be worthwhile having that now:- virtually the 175 formula using 125 air-cooled motors and NO FAIRING....

Much as I didn´t want to install a fairing on Icarus-1 I eventually knuckled down to my mentor´s*** persuasion, it cost 15quid and I never liked it and at the first meeting of wearing a skirt it took a lump out of my left knee when I crashed just after the bridge at Snetterton....

Oh! Here they come again -- the brickbats:- why don´t JayBee go and curl up (as he should do...) and stop using up space to prattle on thro the small orifice half-way up his body??
(or have I got that quote wrong???) .
...
OK! So I can do... but before I go can someone give me sensible answers to cost of
a 21st Century Racing Bantam WITH & Without the goodies -- like water-cooling, reed valve, electronic ingnitions and FAIRINGS....??

***Derek Neil was my engine man whose brother Colin Neil worked for Joe Erhlich at Hatfield of two stoke EMC fame and consequently I bowed to superior knowledge and intelligwence.
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Edward Pickering

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:27 am

Hi John,


Nothing wrong with having an opinion!, but with regards to costings i feel you will never get a base line due to the fact of people buying a complete bike, making items, doing deals etc.



Kind Regards


Eddie
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:57 am

Hi John

I have picked out some of your quotes - like - "I fought for a `Low Cost Formula´ and lost". / I never liked it "?? wearing a skirt , "???? "


I had to chuckle at your next -
"quote" - Oh! Here they come again -- the brickbats:- why don´t JayBee go and curl up (as he should do...) and stop using up space to prattle on thro the small orifice half-way up his body??
(or have I got that quote wrong???) .

"quote" - "can someone give me sensible answers to cost of a 21st Century Racing Bantam"


Derek


Last edited by bettsd on Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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john bass

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PostSubject: Thanks Derek!   Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:29 am

Thanks Derek!
So it looks as if a Low-Cost*** Bantam, nothing fussy, with Formula similar 175 but 125cc long-stroke motor (good torque for fatties! and competitive in a special BANTAM Class of its own) LESS FAIRING could be as low a cost as 800 quid and the full-HiTech fly-blown, water-cooled Bantam 125 with all goodies plus skirt, three times-plus-a-bit as much.

Call the Low-Cost former, "The Original Bantam" Formula and include it in with the other two Formulae in VMCC races as now... Or you might take it a bit more humorous and call it "The Naked Bantam" formula?

Might it attract more to the Fold? It would not be a Novice Class, which term -- I always think-- sounds wrong but it would be a Class for starters who´d not be struggling with the technology as well as the cash -- well, not so much, I´d think!

The original concept of the BRC was, "Racing on the Lowest Cost Possible" and we let that objective get away from us....

Mutter mumble mutter mumble mutter.....

***we don´t use "Cheap" any more it gives the wrong impression of shoddy quality, LOW COST is more high-quality suggestive....
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john bass

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PostSubject: Ed -- re realistic cost...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:52 am

Ed, I think Derek´s reply comes close as one might get-- most of us getting into Bantam racing had some sort of starter like having a lathe or welding equipment on hand or at a mate´s place -- or being in the know with a "good friend" who had a mate who´d always give a motorbike racer a hand at no cost ....

I certainly would not have done road racing on my own although I´d built three grass
track Bitzas from scratch: there seemed much more precision required with road racing, which frightened me then, which I realize now was not entirely true.
Well, not after scrutineering and seeing how some Bantams had modified kitchen utensils on board -- which were just as serviceable as a proper part bought from a shop.

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Edward Pickering

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:07 am

Hi John,


Thats a fair comment and i completely agree, without the help of Terry (Derek's Dad) the fork convertsion and the engine bits and build would never have got done for the new one.


Kind Regards



Eddie


P.S. I asked dad about costing up the new build so far and he said he needed a lie down!!
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:01 am

John your quite correct, ED - "wait for it" - "I agree with john" who is spot on.

After 3 or 4 months, John may wish to say a few things too, i;m sure he will have something more interesting to say after this length of time ("sorry" John just jibbing with you.)

Derek Betts


Last edited by bettsd on Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:01 am

?


Last edited by bettsd on Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:29 am

Derek
you have forgotten to include in your costings -

1 data logging equipment,

2 Hi spec digital ignitions plus laptop to reset between races(£1k)

3 Mota computer programme to run engine simulations....

I don't use any of the above, as I prefer to set up by the seat of my pants!! Its cheaper too....
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Edward Pickering

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:35 am

Good Evening Gents,

Cost, well i think its better to have a hobby and have something to show for it and as we have never done this before then you pay what is asked. Understand the pointers of a basic class but will it happen?

As for topic replies, people can be busy or alot of posts/comments can be made and then playing catch up could be a minefield.


As for technical, excellent to have posts but only if the basics have been nailed down to a layman term or a pointer to where it has been posted before. To be fair from what i can see Alan does this all on his own so that part of previous subjects is a big ask.


Kind Regards



Eddie
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:45 am

Ed quite agree ALAN does do a lot and more than most.

Derek



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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:02 am


computer simulations ? my opinion is they are "a waste of time" for Bantam racing.

"you will waste for ever, on these, they do not give you any BHP - no matter how accurate you make them, not my words come from a far more respected engineer "than anyone in our little group".

spend your time in the shed than dreaming on a P.C.

Derek


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john bass

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PostSubject: Circlips...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:03 pm

How do you know a good circlip from one of low quality?

With difficulty, of course, but checking that its free-size is larger than the groove intended for it -- is one... another is comparing the free diameter of an old one with a new one (obviously of same dimensions of course) and feeling the springiness
of the clip when entrapped in the circlip pliers. Again, that is a "Feel" situation that comes from experience. If when fitted, the circlip can be pushed along (say with a scriber point...) in its groove it is obviously the wrong size (too small) or has relaxed its spring strength from its original diameter which could be attributable to poor tempering or over-use...
Any doubt and a dubious circlip should be flung .... Using only once might be considered going too far but I have known people who insist on the procedure.

Sorry! if that hurts Ed....
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Trevor Amos



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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:48 pm

Hi,all,
As an alternative slant on this cheap racing debate, i made a few phone calls last night. These led to others being made , and so on.
The upshot of which was, i located a good RS Honda , ready to race with spare barrel/head inserts ,piston/rings, crankshaft, clutch
plates ,alternative gearbox ratios ,sprockets ,sundry items like seals , bearings and so forth. In fact everything to see the purchaser
through a full season of racing, and it would be competitive from the go get ! All of this for £1500 --- what would you rather do ?

Get the appropriate software and it will tell you all you need to know ,if you can interpret what is being shown there ! ?
Garbage in ----- Garbage squared out !

Happy computing to you all ? Regards Trevor
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john bass

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PostSubject: Reconsidering...   Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:08 am

That, Trevor, had me thinking of my first time of road-racing -- well riding then when I felt I should get off and push... That was riding a Bantam around that dreadful track Snetterton. Of all things it was a 150cc motor which had me in a 250 race and thinking during practice and in that dreadful situation of everyone clearing off from the grid leaving with me a screaming gutless contraption accelerating at about 1.75feet per second per second whilst the others had vanished into the old Norwich Straight -- that I should have built a 250 Villiers engined hovercraft after all, as my first intention had been -- or perhaps jacketing the 250 Villiers engine in a BITZA frame.

It wasn´t until a 125 engine had been obtained & tuned and I had learnt how to keep the revs at its max 8400 (bit more if the wind from behind) at all times possible and was competing against other Bantams just a little faster that I appreciated what road-racing was all about -- with only 3 gears and hardly any brakes...

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Jimmie



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PostSubject: Re: Memories of Early BRC Days -- or Sloppy Nostalgia...   Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:46 am

Anyone remember this bike down under?

http://avcmc.iinet.net.au/2009_10/mcphee.html
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john bass

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PostSubject: McPhee Bantam...   Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:43 pm

I hadn´t heard of McPhee or his Bantam until Bill Lawrence, living in Ozz -- ex-Eastern Centre Bantam Racing Club -- sent me the same article a few years back.

Seems the Auzzies appreciated his existence where we Brits hadn´t even heard of him -- and the McPhee exploits were swamped by the Walsh Bantam hitting the headlines --- or which came first: Walsh or McPhee?

Strange thing...? the picture seems to have things purposely missing or changed for the sake of the picture.

i.e. The cylinder head appears to be standard Bantam -- with the spark plug lead
not shown -- I wonder if there was a hasty change of cylinder head? I say that because of what was said -- something to do with son´s model aero-engine which probably ran with the Hot-Plug (dieseling) system.
The continuation of the exhaust pipe cannot be seen except for a little bit coming out of the barrel whereas the only pictures I saw of the Walsh were always showing
a megaphone....
Then there´s a large bore tube coming down from the petrol tank to vanish under the `timing cover´ -- what would that be for???

So I come to the conclusion that since McPhee had a secret sytem and Walsh did not use a resonant exhaust pipe maybe -- just MAYBE our British Bantam tuners have missed something ...????




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