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 The future of Bantam racing?

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mjpowell

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PostSubject: The future of Bantam racing?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:40 am

I have heard from various Bantam folk about next year... and have noticed quite alot of people won't be present very often... (becoming part-timers)

This is due to many factors and can include perhaps work load, personal/family commentments and possibly lack of money??

I think 2012 may be a low entry year like in the latter BRC years 90-95.... Where as the first VMCC year 96 was new fresh and different and attracthed 8-10-12 riders....

What was different? Many things but the one that made a difference - number of race meetings -

1995 - 11 days racing mainly one day meetings at Cadwell Snetterton Pembrey Mallory (lowest entry 1 at Pembrey)

1996 - 6 days racing 2 one day, 2 weekends, Snetterton (entry 10) Cadwell (10) Lydden (Cool Cadwell (12)

Why did people come out to play in 96 and not in 95? Too many meetings? Only do your local 3 times a year? Where as if you make a championship smaller? More people to those meetings...

This is just food for thought? I for one would not like to see only 2 bants on the grid....
If you go to BHR site then Forum - Provisional dates for 2012 are published...

Had coffee with Robby at the weekend - he wants as many meetings as possible to amass many points as poss to take advantage of part-timers... lol

Thoughts please......



Last edited by mjpowell on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : (8) comes up as a smiley?)
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Edward Pickering

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:15 am

Hi Mike,

We are going to be out next year, even if i have to push dad round. We may even have two from the clan if its gets sorted, unless another 175 racer comes available to buy and ready to go.


Kind Regards

Eddie & Malcolm
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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:22 am

Mike,

I couldn't find the dates on the Forum but they will determine how many meetings I make as I am a partial attendee depending on clashes with my Masters Degree course that runs on a number of weekends for the next two years.

I thought next year was looking up a little with the potential return of Mick Potter, maybe Mark Taylor, Malcolm Pickering, Mike Redhead and the new owner of the reverse barrel.

I am hopeful of getting Steve Frayne back out for some of the season at least .

That's a potential six new or returnees.

I have not really spoken to any of the regular riders from this year so I dont know who is planning a full season beyond Chris Bennion and Nick Bramley last time I spoke to them.

Perhaps if we could confirm who will and wont be out, now is the time to start looking for "guest" riders, I would be willing to loan my bike out on a you break it you fix it basis if I don't need it myself.

If Malcolm and Ed need a ride or Derek needs one for his son perhaps we can help by making bikes available particularly at meetings with low numbers


James
bounce bounce
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:58 am

2012 will be no different to any other year since the mid 80's when numbers dropped radically,

So full time or part time does it really matter, I can understand a view that it must feel more meaningfull winning a championship when your competing against a lot of riders on the grid "but 2 or 12".

I have to say, I have not seen 4/5 riders all cappable of wining on the grid since the late 70's to very early 80's even then when Tom bought out his sms bikes to kill off the compertition.

Its my view a lot more bantams would still be racing had the short stroke not been allowed into the club back in the day, I know there were alot against the short stroke, but the main club members were never part of the vote, commitee only, we never wanted it, it was a bloody nightmare is even now, unless you know somone, it can still be cheaper to race or purchase a Honda than a bantam, according to Trevor.

Its my opinion grids would have continued to be much bigger, the bikes that were racing would have been passed on like they are now.

But I do feel the same people would still be at the front, "but just not a lap in front,- short strokes as soon as they were in, within two years our class started to die off, the cost and complexity to build a reliable short stroke, properly ?

you were wasting your time on a long stroke, we actually were one of the unfortunate one's we bought a built 54x54 we still have the engine my god what a hack it turned out to be, to be competertive you had to be on a short stroke, otherwise you were racing for.

But now its different a 175 at least with a lot less complication is a far better plan, but be warned I have heared of some 175's apparently with special casting and multiple ports, I hope this is not true. if it is "why"- this is what the 125 class is for.

If his is the case the rules need looking at, I feel only 4 port's one exhaust, one inlet, two transfers should be allowed. ok a bridge in the inlet, but not one in the exhaust.

allowing the alloy barrels, has really helped new starters, what a great rule change, ED has one of the rex gaunt D10 copy barrels.

A 125 short stroke with all that "welding" machining, fitting bigger bearings, "welding the barrel, water cooling, adding extra tracsfer' is one think - but then adding electronic engine management this should never be allowed, who in clud racing is running such complexity what opportunity have you got to compete against it unless you have it too ! and all that cost !.


if you want bigger grids you got to sort this out, who,s want's to come and get lapped in three laps because of the bikes technical advantage,

formulas are there to even up the odds, that should be manupulated to stop cost / techincal advantage.

I dont what any commennts as its my opinion.

on the other new riders to the six james said - you forgot Colin.

there is a light is on the horison each day but you never know what it may bring.!

we will be out too, with an intetion to do all the meetings.

but not sure on Ed's racing, as he now has a "full time" occupation /job, so he will be in the "part timers league" as you say" unlike other folk who can race full time, as they only have "part time" jobs. !!. it must be great working in the education authority or a house wife.

Derek
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:27 am

James looking good for a near full season for you - Good news indeed Very Happy

Ref some of the words used when you were talking new starters - potential, maybe and hopeful.

And have you noticed when we get a new person on the grid it normally fills the place of someone leaving...

Love your idea of loaning bikes - we already do that on occassions now... but i know what you mean.

Derek you didn't want any coments so i won't make any.
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slowandy



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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:44 am

Hi All,

Just joined site after seeing some bantam racers at brands last week.

last raced a bantam in about 1980 with my friend Kerry Dettloff. Niether of us has done any racing for a while but think next season would possibly be a good time to make a comeback!!!!!

So any advice/bikes that maybe for sale ( I think Kerry still has at least some of his bike lurking somewhere, but mine is loooong gone) would be great.

Thanks, Andy.
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Ned

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:41 am

mjpowell wrote:

Derek you didn't want any coments so i won't make any.

Mmm! I was tempted but decided to let him dream on. Rolling Eyes
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Trevor Amos



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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:37 am



"To sleep , perchance to dream-- ay there`s the rub" Hamlet alone, speaking to himself .
Strike a chord with anyone ?

" Till the morrow good fellows " Trevor
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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:18 am

Sorry dereck I don't know what u have for breakfast to make u go off one one like you do but development is part of racing and wanting to win and all technology is available to all at sensible prices. How ever with the amount of riders unable to do all meetings as they are not house wife's or work in education as was suggested why done we go back to the original points system where you could miss a meeting or 2 because u could drop your 2 worst rounds would make the championship closer at the end of the year after all almost all the voted to change the rules are the ones the attend on ocations.
Just my opinion and I can take criticism so let me know.
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:07 am

I was once a boy, the only things that has changed is im a little older and hopefully wiser - dreaming is actually a good thing it allows us to be creative, but also develop that master process visualisation.

“Ned” yes we all have dreams as with dreams come ideas and with ideas come the will to succeed, but thank you for not commenting on it - but “how do you see it then”.

Mike” I agree too. “Thank you for not commenting” but to which bit – and how do you see it. On the don’t comment I took a leaf out of Trevor’s book, sorry if this offended anyone.!


Ian “- actually I think your comments were an excellent response to my post, well said “and” without provocation, But No “smart arse” comments, just honest dialect, actually I cannot disagree, that may be, it can be done cheaply(electronics’), but who has the technical knowhow and the resources, does every Bantam racer have the man power “No”. Also on your point about you can take criticism and very well, I have been digging for months with no response, me on the other had I never take “criticisms well” as I’m similar to the next one and “never wrong!. Also while we are on this subject I have the same problems as he does, my head is so large (and growing) I cannot fit it through the front door. But “hopefully” these things do have a funny way of coming round and biting you where it hurts. When it happens as I’m sure it will I hope it does not hurt too much.
Anyway Ian your response is duly noted, full of maturity with some credible responses .


Trevor - "well", I see you are still trying, you need to try harder my friend as - “I will give it some deliberation before I respond“ or “I will prepare some answers for you” after I have given it some thought !!!,.

Best Regards
Derek Betts
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john bass

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PostSubject: Development must go on...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:18 am

You are right Ian -- development must go on... Or should it be said, "Development will surely go on -- irrespective of cost and resistance..." -- as long as there are people out there with the enthusiasm of Tom, Brian, Andy, Trevor and others whose names are forgotten -- or I don´t know -- SO BE IT!
That is why I said there ought to be another Basic & Long Stroking, Naked 125 Formula -- blokes who cannot afford the full Monty AND SKIRT would have a chance of winning the `BaLS´N Bantam´ Championship at a reasonable outlay.

The idea of programmable engine management system ought to be the next step
with perhaps a variable compression-ratio piston to go with it...!!

Congratulations Ian!

Ahh(yawn)men!
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:01 am

john! men(yawn) ar. its a good job im not censitive, what about a comment on the short stroke long stroke vote you were about then ! please forgive me if I'm have this wrong.
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Mick Potter

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:02 am

Hi All.

I hope no one will beome discoraged from becoming Bantam racers after reading some of the earlier comments.

I know this story is not about Bantams, but bear with me.

Back in the late 80,s the FLRC (MZ racing) started and I decided to have a go at it after it had been going on fore a couple of years. I hade no access to any engenering facilities except welding equipment. I built a Bike makeing everything by hand and any small engenering that I needed i either paid a local engeneer to do or asked a well known friend of bantam racing to help (you all know who, many thanks T). My first half season was just for testing, my second season I won the championship. I even hade my engine mesured because it was so fast. When outher racers asked how come mine was so much faster than thiers, I expained that all I had put into my bike was my time.

The same thing applies to Bantams, if you cant beat the tecknology you can put in the time. All racers who putt in the time in the workshop will reap the reults of thire labour on the track.

Keep it rubber side down.
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:25 am

Well said Mick .... this type of thing has happened time and time again...

Slow Andy this is your chance for a return to the track in a great friendly class
in a great friendly club Smile

There's Mike Redheads 125 for sale in the 'For Sale' section and I know of a 175
if you want to pm me.

Remember Kerry Dettoff in 80s as had his name on the side of his bikes a TD/TZ?
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bennion

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:15 am


While time is certainly a necessity in machine preparation and engine tuning, I believe it is not the only ingredient required to build and maintain a fast relible bike. How about knowledge, facilities, experience, contacts, money and luck - not necessarily in that order??? This is one reason why this Forum is so good - some snippets on the above are posted quite regularly. Dunno about money 'n' luck though.... Laughing
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john bass

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PostSubject: Short stroke intro...   Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:18 am

Actually the fight about going bore/stroke square was before I was on the committee but I attended a couple of centre (Odd) meetings where there was nearly a letting of blood. Same meetings invoked fairings and both objects were initially chucked out. Comments re short-stroke and fairings like. "...pistons won´t last ..." and "... a crash and they´ll cut themselves on the fibreglass..." didn´t prevent their introduction.
The fact that the brave likes of Mick Scutt, Hunter Bros and several others doing the 125 IoM TT was the real reason both were eventually allowed in... Obviously a Bantam looking like that one on the left there (Icarus-1) would be laughed at in the Island -- particularly its Continental Sports tyres and funny (D1) forks....
...
And I think I was the only one to cut himself on a broken fairing -- Snetterton, of course!


Iza Hazbinn.
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ted

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:19 pm

HI guys (how come no girls these days?)A comment no Trevor’s Shakespeare quote, Shakespeare also said “never a borrower nor a lender be” we best no apply that one to Bantam racing!
I know it was on a different post but I will comment on rule changes. As you all know I hate to agree with anyone especially Mike but I do agree the rules are good so if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
I would post the Shakespeare quote joke but the site may well be shut down if I did, and it’s one of those you can’t remove the bad langue from.
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:23 am

Hi Chriss/ mick - but I agree with chriss, and Mick is talking throught that little orifise, mike is playing pollertics -

chriss yes facilities is what it all became (after the selfish introduction of the short stroke) if you have the facilities, then you have a huge advantage , you are one step ahead, yes you can develop the knowledge, and experience ? only comes with time.

As for micks comments on measuring engines its a shame it did not go on more often back in the day, but you are really only cheating yourself, ! anyway, we are of the opinion, there is some need of some changes, I will let you know what i will be suggesting after- I have some answers to my questions on long stroke V short stroke.

good to see so many debating these new/old topics, shame most of the comments sound as though there comming from Politician's talking on WMD.

The association of "Historic longstrokes and iron barrel brigade, In HISTORIC RACING.

Derek Betts.


Last edited by bettsd on Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:45 am

it took so long to reply seem john has at last said yes I agree, there were only a few who actually wanted short strokes but if it was not for the island riders they would never have been allowed,

Hi Ted, listen! I have a great deal of respect for Ted, but he on occasions get caught up in the euforia, and i forgive him for talking as Mike and trevor has on this point, but at leaset, he gets the quotes correct unlike the other pair, also Ted "that cylinder head you sold us", seems you identified a little aspect I have not previously in all these years - identified, sorry I can not share this.

on the other fool's comments, there are those that can, those that do, those that remember, those that prefer to foget.

and lets get back to tuning / frame mods going in the same direction I will try and stopp scoring points, even though there seems to be a few home goals - honest!

keep posting, as we may find somthing interesting, and show all those new boys looking in, what a big happy family we all are !!!

"The long stoke, iron wheels, and steel barrels, No reedvalves, no electronics, front drum brake and Todd faring, renegade DEREK.
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john bass

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PostSubject: I was the IDIOT...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:22 pm

Yes Derek it was me -- the IDIOT -- 41 to 42 years ago, who said fairings on
BRC Formula Bantams should be banned. I said it at the time my hope was strong
of keeping Bantam Racing at low cost for young starters. Of course, that was impossible because Bantam racers were wearing fairings at other club´s race meetings and the TT so we just had to give in....

You kindly gave us an `as now´ costing and it was the cost of a naked Bantam
that had me say it would be rather pointless to have another "Basically & Naked Bantam Formula" because with Trevor´s numbers for a Jap racer the newcomer would iobviously choose the Jap....
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:48 am

Hi JB I like the short quotes, and lots of interesting information,
I went to a gathering recently some one spoke of the very meeting you talk of, not quite as you say but sad, that the few won over the many,

On the RS - cheaper!! Trevor may well have some experience here, - but £1500.0 gets you "what"??, a bike that's is capable of what!, this class is highly catered for, its my opinion you need a team of engineers, and money to compete at the top level,"no matter how talented the rider.

John what is your opinion on the piston subject you spoke of ?.

Regards - Derek
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john bass

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PostSubject: Piston subject...   Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:33 pm

You´ve lost me Derek -- which piston subject?

Did you mean the increased length*** of piston ring and piston wall of the 175 to
the 125 -- which I said for the one ring was 17mm as against that of the 175`s
20mm and from the comparison with another Auto Engineer´s test work at 4,500rpm
would SUGGEST a loss of engine power to piston & ring friction of 18.4% more in the 175.
Unfortunately that was only at 4.500rpm and as we know the friction losses increase exponentially according to the square of the speed so that at 9 - 10,000
this amount could be a lot more ...

What I have suggested is that with a Sprinter, having heavy flywheels, the stored energy is contributing to overcoming these friction losses by keeping the engine at high revs and slipping the clutch....

***length being the circumference, of course!
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: The future of Bantam racing?   Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:57 am

HI John
"I feel quite angree about your reply" - what do you mean piston! "you know dam well what I'm talking about !!!

Derek.
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john bass

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PostSubject: Piston??   Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:12 pm

Might that be measuring piston friction, Derek?

Someone once mentioned a silicon-alloyed liner
-- which I know FA about.

I consider the reduction of piston wall friction
a worthwhile challenge to go after.
I once suggested .. many years ago on here --
using low friction material pads `somehow´
grafted into the piston wall!

I think several readers fell over laughing!!??
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