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 George Todds - 125cc Bantam -

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Derek

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PostSubject: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:32 am

How fast was George Todd's Bantam,? does anyone know ?

Also how much power did it produce, and was it a long stroke or short stroke, what barrel did he start and finish with, and what pistons where they using before the batch of special single ring types where made by hepolite.

Regards, Derek
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Trevor Amos



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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:51 am

Derek,
If by George Todd`s Bantam you mean the machine Fred launchbury raced , the following may help.
14.5 bhp at 9,200rpm safe to 10,000rpm
Track tested at Silverstone club circuit in January 1966, with a very strong tail wind ,it was electronicly timed at 95,47mph.
with Fred on board. The journalist Bruce Main-Smith ,who oversaw the test , managed 88.23mph. Fred was very tiny
and Bruce a good deal more bulky.
Peaking at 9,200rpm and running the quoted 15x47 gearing would suggest around 88-90mph and was 52x58mm geometry.
featuring 4 inch flywheels with packing rings in the cases .
The barrel was a small fin , std cast iron one with the large transfer passages and ports and was unremarkable but had very,
very polished ducts !

The piston was a Hepolite two ring where the Dykes top ring formed part of the crown , the lower was plain .

On the other hand , if you mean the machine George personally raced , i have very little info other than it was pretty standard
with the notable exception of a chain driven , rotary sleeve valve inlet system which used asymetric timing . The whole engine
was lubricated by an external pilgrim pump with tubes running every where. Alan , if you read this could you possibly post that
pic please , of great interest to every one i should have thought, many thanks .

Hope that helps Regards Trevor
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john bass

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PostSubject: Trevor -- Brilliant!   Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:35 pm

Wünderbar!

This sort of info is what is needed -- oil pipes everywhere -- sounds good!

I was thinking of a rotary sleeve-valve -- since its alraedy been done I´ll go for the reciprocating version.

Cheers!
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Trevor Amos



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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:13 am

Hey John,
Get you`re self over to Hochstadt , there is a photographer living there by the name of George E Todd !
Rumour has it he used race BSA Bantams and sell parts for them . Intriguing or what, do your best impression
of Miss Marple ?

Trevor
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mscutt

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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:40 am

Makes you think doesn't it

14.5bhp and 95mph and so I believe over 100mph on the long straights in the IOM

Looks like the George / Fred fairing really was very slippery

Mick
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:46 am

Trevor I seem to remember the small fin early D1 barrel, had some aluminium fin's shrunk onto the top part of the barrel above the exhaust port "why was this? done.

Do you know what carb they used, Also I'm aware you new george todd, but how did you come to race a Bantam first and then get involved with that 200cc bantam.

My dad still has one of the original micro film drawings George did on his barrel, it was a scheme on his sizes, timings and port shapes, for both 125 and 175cc Bantams, but the barrel drawing is a large fin iron std type.

regards

Derek
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Trevor Amos



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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:00 am

Hello Mick, Derek and all.
On the subject of fairings , i was on-line and trawling through the archive of Mortons , the historic photo people , and chanced
upon two interesting pictures . The first of which was a snap of Fred in the Island and was taken almost head-on and just about
head height . None of Fred`s body was visible , no helmet , shoulders ,hands , knees or feet, absolutely nothing ! It is a strange ,
almost eerie view , for the bike appears rider-less !
There is no doubt that had the fairing been"squeezed" down , reducing it`s frontal area , but still keeping Fred covered, he would
have gone even faster !
Again in the Island , on the drop down to Brandish , his speed was recorded at 105mph , I have no personal knowledge of this
stretch of road but 105 is pretty damned impressive by any standard !

By way of a slight digression , the second photo was of the lovely Eunice Evans . Crouched down , she has her Bantam keeled over
leading a small group of persuers , intense concentration on her face , as good a racing picture as one could wish to see, she
beat me more than once, a terrific snap of smashing girl ! I certainly remember her and her racing exploits with admiration
and affection .

I have an interesting pamphlet from 1954 , published by Floyd Clymer and is a compilation of a series of articles from Cycle
magazine in the States . Prominent of which is a long article about tuning 125 Bantams , Harleys and Dkw engines . A sample
engine from a Harley is used by way of illustration , and , showed the shrinking on of a 4 fin alloy jacket ,the largest of which is all of
6- 5/16 inches in diameter , to improve cooling . Bearing in mind that back then the best fuel was only 85 octane i expect their
engine ran very hot and the ally jacket must have helped a lot . I can`t recall too many instances of this feature being used in
the recent past as most tuners went to big fin barrels .

Overwhelmingly the carb of choice was the Amal TT usually with a 1-1/16 inch bore size . I say this because there were few
alternatives available then where a racing carb was concerned , unlike the situation today. Later the Mikuni VM became available
and proved to be a fine choice for a Bantam but DeL Orto and Bing could also be seen .

As with most young lads that had an interest in bikes , we all want to race , the colourfull , screaming two strokes had a a particular
fascination for me . The Bultaco was just too expensive so there was little choice else where . A visit to the Motor Cycle show at
Earles Court brought me in contact with Formula Bantams. On the Motor Cycle Mechanics stand were two Bantams , one of which was
Sam Benns all red fire engine ! I was captivated and kept returning just to ogle at these racers then came away with the conviction
that " I could do that ", and i did , and still do !

Brother David became aware that spare parts were not available at meetings , other than that which the club offered , so gradually
a small enterprise grew that catered specifically for Bantams . We contacted George to see if he wanted his products represented
and available at meetings , he was enthusiastic about that and our association grew . Contact with him became greater with time
as were our visits and on one occation we went into his garage and there stood the 186 . George asked if we were interested in
buying it , we said yes , a little while later we collected it , and the rest as they say is history !
I think it was in 72 or 73 he left the UK to take up a post with a team developing guided missiles , and the last letter we had from
him came from Sardinia , and as far as i know the ripe old octagenarian is resident now in Germany !

A nice little story actually , and another facet of the still evolving world of Bantam racing . Hope that helps you a little Derek ?

Catch you all later , Regards Trevor



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john bass

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PostSubject: Bantam as a Guided Missile!   Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:39 am

Interesting story Trevor -- I guess George`s story could be similar mine -- I got offered an unbelievable salary and position by a German company which had me leave Ford Testing Operations (known there as "Resting Operations!!"), England and the Bantam Racing Club (and Bantam racing).
Now -- at this moment -- I regret most of all the latter because what I read on here suggests I missed the best part of the Bantam development and what (with a faster Bantam and Andy´s 250 ABS further development) could have been the better of my road racing times....

Hochstadt -- if that is the one -- is over by Mannheim which is spitting distance from Hochenheim so when I´ve been there with Slick as Fogarty´s chief Spanners-Wielder it´s more than likely Mr Todd was close by....

It´s about time I got into suing some on here for AGE-DISCRIMINATION - Derek & YOU Trevor -- first!! perhaps George will join me in this then with our compensation we build a Bantam with a new style cylinder head.... -

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TERRY



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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:28 am

Hi Trevor, I have some photo;s of the rotary valve Bantam actually built by a D.Armstrong but Fitted in the bike raced by George, in 1951 I have a picture from the mortor cycle of both this with the original builder named, also of the very alloy fined barrel you speck of this was raced by George it must have been before he parntenred up with Fred mid '50's
its exactly as you say, top four fins shrunk on, to a small fin barrel perhaps not done by George Todd, although it has his initials stamped on the cases,!!

I will try and up load some pictures but like you say pipes everywhere, !! love the technical information.

keep them comming.

! Barnes w.j wallis was a great Engineer too.
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Trevor Amos



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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:20 am

Hello Terry,
Would love to see the pictures you have , it will all add to the Bantam racing heritage ,which i feel , deserves to displayed in
an accessable location , there are many more pioneers that deserve recognition , the Hogan brothers for instance !

Here in Somerset we have our own hero , Brunel , and if you like engines , the one installed in" The Great Weston " , is operational
being motor driven , and is totaly awesome !

I`l keep trying with the techno speak !

Regards , Trevor
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TERRY



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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:47 am

Hi Trevor
Yes, lots of brothers raced Bantams Hogans were amongst the first, along with the floods, Amos, Andrews, Davis, Betts, Powell, Woods, all brother, seems very popular calss for brothers, some a lot more famouse than others.

I will ask Eddie to help me down load the paper clippings for you.

it seems a very clever piece of Engineering, I have been reading it, and it says he raced it himself at Blandford and thruxton, before riding "it home" after each meeting!!.
Not sure the current race Bantams would get away with this, but what a thought.!

regards TERRY

p.s love your posts - always no nonsence, technical and very interesting, worth ready.!!
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:32 pm

Hi Trevor here some photo's of the very engine you where talking of it hass GT stapped on it, ?does not mean it was his but i know where it came from and Ibelieve when George stopped he gave some of his stuff to them FOC.

hOP YOU FIND THEN INTERESTING, i WILL GET THE 1951 MOTOR CYCLE MAG PRINTS OF HIS AND ARMSTRONGS ROTARY CYLINDER INLET VALVE ENGINE. AS SSON AS I can

regards Derek

[i









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Trevor Amos



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PostSubject: Re: George Todds - 125cc Bantam -    Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:53 pm

Hello Terry and Derek ,
What great pictures , thank you and i would be delighted to see any more info you may have , be it articles or pics.
I have managed to unearth a few more snippets from past Bantam exploits . Way back in the 1950s both George and
David Armstrong were developing the sleeve valve inlet system , it seems as a joint collaboration , but ,i can`t be
certain on that . Subsequently , as the result of a catastrophic and terminal seizure , the system was dropped by George
in favour of the conventional piston port set up in use today . This proved to be a blessing in diguise for the engine ,
with the help of more advanced two stroke theory , was found to be more powerfull ! As all of this was going on another
tuner, and sadly i don`t have a name , constructed a fearsome monster propelled by a vane type supercharger and
was nicknamed " Marley`s Ghost " , any info at all on this one out there ?
Peter Hogan , with input from brother John, constucted an intresting Bantam twin which , in 1957, George managed to
get a few rides on , Classic Racer mag had a couple of pics on this machine two or three years back .

Another pair of brothers spring to mind , the Hortons , Peter an Clive . Peter made very nice exhausts for Bantams
and Clive became a very succesfull international rider , and if you see this Clive , i still have the" Jews Harp " !

Post again , Trevor


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johnSbantam

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PostSubject: George Todd connections Downunder   Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:53 pm

Over the years I have met, talked to a lot of old Bantam racers. All great blokes, who have shared stories and information.
A frequent visitor to our big Pukekohe Classic Festival from Aus, Peter Scott, now renown Rudge racer shared with me the story of his Todd Bantam.
He gave me a photocopy of the letter from GT to the original owner, one .....(lost off the top of copy) Lloyd. It would appear it was the last alloy 175 top end George made before he "left the old country"

"like this but with side angle exhaust not straight out as shown here (what super motor that was - 118mph on the straight ! and averaged 86mph around Snetterton ! I reckon yours could do the same with similar exhaust timing (about 3mm more height !)(and around 1.5mm trans.) GeorgeT.

Similar to yours Trevor ? Ken is try to sort an old Todd 175 alloy barrel I found many years ago, was given a picture with it of a head with horizantal first fin like B175. He has found big ~ 6mm gap above piston top at BTDC, so I am wondering if this was made for shorter 118mm Bultaco rod too ?
Peter Scott said his motor was very torquey, fast and ripped up standard clutchs, he fitted a Suzuki A100 one. Sold it on and lost track of the bike.
Can copy more details if anyone is interested.

Last year I met Howard White who worked for GT and bought his business. His brother Roy emigrated to NZ and built a cast iron barrelled 175 Bantam racer with help from Howard in the early days of Classic racing here. This bike was campaigned successfully for many years by three members of the White family then sold on to my mate Les Harris. It still has an original "Todd White Bantam" sticker on the back of the seat. Roy made some GT heads from an original pattern, which he swapped me for a Villiers motor. It has thinner more tapered fins than the Fahron looking ones. But sadly wont work/come out of casting sand, so it must have distorted.

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GeTe



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PostSubject: That Bantam   Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:06 pm

Hello all - I'm still here, hanging on in my 86th year. Derek Betts suggested I should pop in to say Hi !
You see old friends, I've been in another world all these years...

First, I may still have the Motorcycle News (full page!) article about the test they did with Fred riding the Bantam, but from memory I'd say that Brother Amos is right. Regarding the speed of that Bantam, I recall too, that Fred was clocked at 106+ something at the Highlander in one of the TT races (it might have been the one in which he retired with a broken contact breaker. We had changed it for a new one - the other had done several seasons!
A classic example of that 1 in million failure, but you never say when it going to occur... What happened to the 'bike after Fred died?

I had already moved to this little village in Bavaria, a year before his sad demise... What happened to Beryl?

When I get more tim I'll try to catch up on what you've been doing - I'm just astonished that Bantam Racing all still going strong!
presumably I may see some familiar names if I check your members list ?

If you want to see what I've been doing all these years, I have an out of date website (I haven't got the key): www.photo-todd.de,
and on Blurb.com are 14 various photography books, plus 2 others that were published in 2001 and 2003 by major publishers in London and New York.
Otherwise - not much happening around here Very Happy

My dear lady has just said that it's nice that I'v lived long enough to see people being interested still... Smile
Cheers and have a good Sunday - we're off to sell lots of pictures in the local Xmas Bazar !!!
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john bass

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PostSubject: Wonderful Pictures George!   Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:07 am

Hi George! I only ever heard of you and I was but a short time racing Bantams anyway, after your time -- only part successfully because there were a thousand other things taking up my time and then the German company in Canada wanted me ...
Wonderful pictures George.
We are in Bensberg, Bergisch Gladbach which has some good scenery too and we´ll be going to Süd Eifel on 23rd Dec... which is really picturesque being there are many ex volcanic lakes with very hilly coutry. Well, we hope they are ex....!

Any thoughts on how large -- or small -- should the Bantam flywheels be? I reckon there ought to be some criteria that gives an optimum size.
Ignore that last comment if you feel it is nonsense -- which it probaly is....
Cheers!
John Bass -- ex BRC Chairman and mostly ex these days!...
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Derek

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PostSubject: Trevor help   Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:13 am

Hi Trevor hope you are well today
just a few ! points I hope are recieved in the correct vain.

1) I see you never answered my questions ref the sonic waves post, or the the information on constructing a water cooled barrel, are you going to make a comment on these requests, "your not under any requirement to do so", but it would be very helpful, there are many people looking in who could use this type of information you and other possess and have accuired over many years, to build both super quick engines and reliablility to. I just wish to see more than 1/2/3/4 my vision is to see the whole grid, 10 or 12 or more bantams racing at the front not two or three disappearing into the distance, this makes for our class to grow, as it is its unattractive to perspective newcommers, beside who wants to joint a class that has world renouned and class engineeers playing the pied piper with waves in exhausts that some of us just dont want to understand never mind even if you spell it out speel it out. but it would be a start what about it?
I sincerely hope you have forgiven me for my berligerance it was all in the right cause, but wrong I know this now, and so do the appropriate people, our class needs to grow now so what about it. "please or even PM me" or pass the photos info to edd, I will pass information back that I'm absolutly sure you would wish to know or have. ! call it a Gentlemans exchange of information, but I will go first as long as you agree, I know your a man of great credibility !.
and better looking than your brother !!!!!!!!!!!!.

2) You liked the pictures from Terry "ref history George Todd" I need help from ed to down load some info that is even better.!!

regards Derek
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