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 THE WILL TO WIN

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Ned

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PostSubject: THE WILL TO WIN   Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:34 am

It's been said on here a few times that the fastest bikes kill the formula. I don't think this gives credit to their pilots. There have been numerous occasions when guys on formula bantams have finished in respectable positions in open 125 races. The riders that finished behind them on what were obviously far superior expensive machines either didn't have the ability to get the best out of their bikes or the desire to win. The best example I can give between winning and loosing on a formula bantam happened in my last year of racing when I was loosing my die hard attitude.
I was in second place in a race at Snetterton and decided I wasn't going to catch the leader so I would ease off and settle for a safe second. Before I could complete another lap I was overtaken by two guys that I had become accustomed to finishing in front of. But not this time.
That in my opinion proved their bikes couldn't have been that much slower than mine and they had the will to win.

It's a very fine line between staying on and winning. Wink

Edit - Started reminiscing about this race after I wrote this and it's an even finer line than I first wrote. I had infarct been in a scrap with the leader and overtaken him twice but when he got back in-front for the third time it broke my will to try again. Just goes to show how close winning and finishing mid field can be.
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:14 am

Hi Ned

you seem to be missing the point in here someware, I was just clarifying an earlier misconseption of my own some moths back, I hoped to right a wrong!, hope you understand its nothing personal to you. unless you were on the technical committe at the, in which case "I blame you then",!

as far as your last statement goes absolutly, you were beaten because you took your finger off the pulse, so be it, well its not sole distroying when another rider not particularly a better rider beats you, because his bike is quicker or he is, Im not questioning this, just the other way round - some one beats you due to have a slightly quicker ok but a motor 25 mph quicker in each gear!!!!, this is the point im talking about "one that should be looked at", not shyed away from.

outbraking some for a corner or squrting past on on the back stragh is nothing to do with my debate,
but 2/3 laps infront come on ! this needs looking at!!, my opinion is not wrong".

kind regards Derek
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john bass

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PostSubject: Same again...   Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:03 am

Same again Ned -- I know the feeling. I feel sick when I think of my very last Bantam race at Lydden.

I had entered so I felt I had to go and "race" but in 3 weeks from that Sunday I would be in Germany starting this brand new job that came out of the blue with higher salary, promotion and the adventure of building a brand new R&D facility in Canada after training in Germany.

So, in practice I told myself I must NOT fall off -- and I did, losing the screen ... In the race I was telling myself what a fool I was and my concentration was nearly zero....

My advice to anyone going to a race meeting with "things-on-his-mind" is to swallow pride and stay at home. And certainly NOT do what I did in the 1981 Parade -- wear a borrowed, toilet-paper-padded crash-helmet -- which was really having something on the JayBee mind!!

There were so many occasions when I knew from practice times
that I had no chance of winning yet in the actual race I´d be up near the front feeling quite sure it was possible.


Cheers!
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Ned

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:24 am

I wasn't offended by those comments Derek. They just inspired me to write this bit about the difference in winning and and finishing mid field. There are guys that get a lot of pleasure just riding and being involved with no thoughts of winning. They get the adrenalin rush without the pressure or thoughts of having to push to the limit so it's not hard to understand why they would.
The difference is, as Mick Scutt said to me in my early days "Your riding fast, your not racing"
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:32 am

Derek the only way to get everybody to finish on the same lap is to get the slower
riders to go faster- perhaps with help,assistance and information from this site. You can not get
fast riders to go slow!! Its 'Bantam Racing' not 'Bantam Parading'

Oh just thought of another option - only race at very long cicuits.
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ted

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PostSubject: will to win   Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:08 am

Derek was not sure if when you wrote 2/3 you meant to mean two to three laps or two thirds of a lap. I had a slow but very reliable old Bantam that so many riders borrowed I lost count. When I rode it I was at the back end of the field as were a lot of the riders that used it, Mick Potter used to finish 3rd or 4th on it. When Ian Scott jumped on it minuets before a race at Anglesey with no time to make any adjustments he finished 4th. I was thanked by all the people that used it as it gave them a fun ride and in some cases valuable points, the same bike! some riders 3rd or 4th others 8th to 12th just go quicker!!!! If you doubt my words let someone who needs a ride for championship points have a ride on your bike and get a better yard stick of how quick or slow your bike is. It sometimes makes you feel humble, sometimes makes you think “I’m not that slow “but it will give you a good maker of your bikes true potential.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:18 am

Remember it well Ted I had already given my spare bike to Robbie and Mike was chasing the championship took a tumble in the c of c with no time for repairs I gave him mine, as they were going in to the holding area u noticed I was not going out and told me to get my leathers on quick while u changed the numbers we made it in time and went off as if I was on my own bike only problem I had was I had to stand up abot and move my foot forward to change down as I could not reach the gear leaver lol must admit it was a fun and exciting race what would we all do if people didn't lend bikes from time to time Very Happy
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john bass

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PostSubject: Can be fun...   Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:42 am

I must agree Ian that borrowing a bike at last minute can be fun but also rather hectic.

At Lydden I could not start the ABS 250 and Chris Newport(spelling??) lent me his Italian 6-cylinder machine just as everyone was going up to the grid. As I threw the ABS against the trailer Chris came over and handed me this very expensive looking bike that whose engine was running and I just made it onto the grid for the start. Chris had shouted "Don´t rev it over 11,000..." . I think it was a Benelli and of course it had its gear-change on the brake side... Started like a dream at the run and bump and suddenly I was wheelying past the front men. I saw 14,000 on the clock and changed into second with the brake lever .... It took me two laps to get used to where the damned gear lever was and by then I could see where I was among the crowd... By ignoring the rear brake altogether I was able to concentrate on changing gear and in any case the front brake did all the braking needed. Three of the 6 laps were really enjoyable and I couldn´t have given a damn what position I was in because I managed to get by two others before the end.

I think Chris said it was less than 200cc but it gave me a good ride. Wonderful club spirit to lend an expensive bike that to a nut like me. I saw Chris at Lydden in 2005 and thanked him again and then missed having a drink with him as promised. If he reads this I´ll say, Hey Chris, I owe you a pint....

CheerS!
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bennion

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:08 am

I think the point Derek is trying to make is where there is a significant lap time differential between bikes. In days of old, this was well accommodated by the Novice, Intermediate and Senior classes. By necessity, these days every race is a ‘Senior’ race - fact. I have experienced leaving the line at Cadwell at maximum revs, holding everything against the stop round Charlies and seeing the rest of the pack approaching Park before I’m even at the bottom of the dip. This is due to two issues - my engine power and my weight. The laws of physics dictate that he who carries more weight than the competition is going to lose out coming out of every corner, every time. I think it is also a fact that the better your engine is performing, the better you tend to ride. Personally, I’m just happy to get a finish these days and if that’s in close proximity to others then that’s a bonus. My concern is the inherent danger present when it’s time to get lapped - seriously scary when the scooters were in with us last year. At least that's not an issue this season bounce
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:27 am

Hi Ned and all -
Ned - thanks for that reply and a great way to put it, I have to say I can not disagree with anything you or the other have said only adding the following points.

I feel this is a good healthy debate, and certainly good we can debate it in this way, I'm certainly not suggesting as Mike has implied "to get quick guys to go slower", this is rediculas, I just think there is somthing wrong with our formula ?, (the fast guys are too just so much quicker because of advances/skills knowledge / resources? it does not matter what,).

The real debate and what Im talking about, or the point i'm trying to make is, our class does not present the specacle it should, and is not easy to get into without a very steep learning curve over many years and resources, for someone who is building new or even someone returning, for sure there are exceptions "Mark steve Trevor" - there may well be others ! OK".

However its a class with a lot of history, the bikes have a lot of history, well most do, even more history with some of the riders, and families - to me "this equals a marketing dream" or a future with potential to grow, what class would you pick to start in, a class you can at least start and finish on the same lap, or one that makes you look so slow its embarising,!! - advantages our Bikes are still "cheap to build" compared to other classes -with or with an alloy barrel, but most importantly when viewed by others "it has to be seen to be "a spectacle to watch and not just by "Bantam enthusiasts" -

I'm just thinking of numbers - "somthing needs to be done and changes need to happen "or the release of new information or something?? "I have to say I really do not have the answers". !!! but Im sure they are out there.!

for Ted - a small number cross the line 2/3 = 2 or 3 laps in front, then "Ted in a formula something is wrong"! "
I would like to finish on at the same lap, and please dont try and tell me its my corner speed "sorry " just do not bye it" - is it "Engine Power" or is it something alse or is it a combernation of the two", I believe its the latter!, and Iwill give you an instance.


I would like to see a little more openess - for instance "I was not always a slow as Iam now, and for sure Im confident this will change, but I always could never understand my bike had the same top speed sometimes quicker, put the top three would fly away comming on of the corners into top gear - this actually always lead me to believe they had somthing "different" and was not telling "gearboxes top gear ratio", in some cases this has been recently proven to be the case!! ( now without making another comment that would possibly have me band I dont feel this is true sportmanship to have an unfair technical advantage

not sure what the words are to say this - but like the difference between software and hardware on a computer software ok this down to you, but we should all be using the same hardware and know about the different types or combernations- and "you know we are not", I only found this out before my return in 2010, ? why was the top gear ratio box issue not common knowledge "at the time" - This in a formula is what I'm talking about - This is the point I was trying to make about a previouse subject ! but lets not get into that one again.

Surley in any formula, all should use basically the same equipment and be told about/guides for all to use the same mechanical items - sure there will always be winners and losers and a midfield pack, just like to see it closer to the front, and on the same lap!.

good to see all the views on this, any others please chip in!!!

regards Derek
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:39 am

I remember that Ty Croes meeting, very sporting of all involved :- Mick Potter and I the 2 championship contenders, I crash in the Champion of Champions race (to raise the bantam racing banner) and Ian kindly others me 005 so leaving himself without a bike and then Ted (basically Mick Potter bike provider) others his other bike to Ian - very sporting.. Well Done Ted! and come to that offering me his 11bhp bantam at 3 sisters and i got it up to 2nd before grounding the footpegs followed by a highside!!

Thats the great part about bantam racing the sportsmanship!
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:48 am

Hi Mike

"come off it" you are not going to win on an 11 BHP bantam, neather are you getting upto 2nd place that next year, it was I agree an exceptional ride, but on a circuit with a long straight, not a chance mate, would that be the same at snetterton.

"love the quote"

regaards Derek

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john bass

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PostSubject: The Will To Win is still there at 5th place...   Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:27 pm

The will to win is (WAS) still there for me in every race I entered even knowing I had no chance to beat the up-front SENIOR runners while my engine was a longstroke, 12 horsepower (my engine man´s guess!) but I´d still be racing to win over whomever was buzzing alongside -- and if it were The Wobbleyman it would be a real bluddy battle for sure.

More sickening nostalgia: 17th May 1973, Llandow -- look it up if you have any old mags -- run and bump and away in mid field. I am at 5th place, end of first lap and it begins to rain. Catching and passing, here-what´s up! something wrong? -- have they stopped the race? I was passing everyone! As I saw the last lap flag I realised I was going to win if I kept riding like the wild Viking I was doing -- so I slowed down. This was only May and I wanted to get more points in Inter races during the `73 season so I slowed, looked behind and saw Poddy Phillips. I waved him forward but he just shook his head which showed a huge grin! ... Thoughts were, the rest of the season as a Senior -- oh no! But it was so and thus I knew that there were only three Inter races left for me² -- and they were on that day so I had The Will To Win -- all over again where just momentarilly it had gone away.

"Go for the ride" Derek (my engine-man buddy) would say when I moaned bitterly about the other blokes having water-cooled marvels revving beyond 11, 000 rpm and I´d still go to win which meant that even if I was lying in 5th or 6th spot I was determined to be 4th.

Much the same on Grass. My dear old Dad would be really upset, "Why couldn´t you settle for second place -- just have to go and fall off on the last corner dunnyer!?"

²... George Harris put on 2 Novice races and lots more races than any other organiser -- well Llandow was only 0.9mile track.
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john bass

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PostSubject: PS...   Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:37 pm

PS -- mumble mumble mutter:-

I still think a "Nake Bantam Class"² would be attractive to the watching public and to the riders themselves. Watchers would see the Bantam engine as it WAS, because it would be air-cooled, long stroke and clear to the eye to see. Still racing in with their senior-superiors it would be easy for the public to see that the Naked Class were battling among themselves and they themselves could see whom they were up against.

It would give a newcomer the Will To Win!! Ow! not again, Ned, Ow!

JayBee reels across the canvas and retires hurt!

² ... No streamlining -- picture as of Dave Hunter´s avatar on here showing a skirt is really not necessary -- his drag factor must have been less than 0.3 ....
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:29 am

JB comments are pointing us towards removing fairings, I actually agree with this, some fairing are not period looking enough and spoil the historys of the bikes they sit on, and in my opinion afffect the class appearance as a proper Historic class. I'm not going native, "far from it", just stating some facts, as we are all I'm sure, happy with what we have.
I went to an auto jumble recently, and came across the bike my dad built when I was still at school, it had a plunger! rear end, the engine and barrel had been buchered, free to anyone who would like a 125 for ? what ever reason, but it did have a lovely 3 speed cr? box inside too, that im keeping "before he changed the frame for the item I did my first race on, dad only changed it as he bent the frame a week before he was due to race it, it before his first meeting early 60's by his foot slipping off the brake and hitting the accelerator, anyway the swing-arm frame I did my very firsst meeting on, now forms part of my crank/reed water cooled bike that Micky Nash helped me build.

Im still busy trying to sort out the gearbox on eds 175cc - seems all the bearings a lose spin lovely by hand one by one but, other than when I put the cases together then, the top gear locks up the g/box, we had to have it welded so just can not understand it never had this before, Mind you Ihave found some horendous issue when stripping this egine it would not surprise me if the gearbox cetre are out. as If I take out the main shaft the layshaft will spin and if we take out the layshft leaving in the mainshaft it will spin also, ? but as soon as both are in it binds reallly badly. help anyone

we need to make the transfers for my new watercooled barrel for our crank reed motor, but have a completely different, thinking more about direction / than angles and volume than timings, Big is beautiful "but only upto a point".


JB Ever the engineer, when you say 0.3 ref Hunter avatar could you please give an explanation on the factor this represents - drag or frontal area or a formula that includes both, please elaborate

shusssh! -"hope this keeps him quiet? can not say FW2 hopefully will probably miss this.


regards Derek
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mscutt

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:09 am

Derek

re your gearbox:

could it be you have a newer type sliding gear with splines right through on an older type shaft with the extra set of dogs ?

Mick
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ted

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:06 am

I am slightly offended that you do not believe me and the riders that have used the 11 BHP Bantam, and done well on it. It is still in existence and may well be raced this coming season; if I thought it worth it and you would believe any evidence present to you I would bring the dyno printout to Mallory. Before your comments I was considering lending you my race winning 175 to see how well you could do on a 107 mph proven winner. Remember the bit at the end of my last post JUST GO QUICKER!!!!!!
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john bass

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PostSubject: Yes Ted!   Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:53 am

With my 12horsepower***, Icarus-1 it was, " Tuck in behind a fast bloke and I´d be as fast as him..." trouble came when trying to pass which could happen on a hairpin -- OUCH, oh how my right elbow hurts when I think of Druids!!!

Don´t get offended with these young-bloods Ted -- not worth the rush of blood-pressure -- they didn´t live thro´ "Trying-Times" like we did. I bet most of them still have Mummy tying-up their shoe laces for them... .

*** calculated from bike-plus-rider´s weight in Poundals & Slugs using 0.5Drag Factor² and time taken to accelerate past the grid at Brands Hatch....

².... called Coefficient of Air Resistance in Aerodynamics company!
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john bass

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PostSubject: NO!   Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:07 am

No! I do NOT agree with getting rid of fairings altogether...

The high speed Senior-Superior-Bantams SHOULD wear skirts because that epitomizes the development of The RACING Bantam...

What I would like to see is a formula that has a Novice class repeated WHERE -- the 125 Naked Bantams are truly representative of the early BRC pholosophy in having only long stroke engines and air cooling -- to show they are Bantams. The essence of the formula would be "Racing On The Cheap" plus these would be New Boys with as near pukkha Bantam Racers as possible....

Yes -- right! I´ll creep into a corner and go to sleep!

Cheers! ,
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:01 am

wow ted just spotted this your offended! well as you would say!!!!!--------- thanks

the rest is just junk.

regards Derek


Last edited by bettsd on Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:35 am

were to start im not sure there has been so many points of view been posted and i though i would add mine as some people are just having a joke

i allways get told u only get out of a bike what u put into it and this is true there is so much information on this website that u could build a engine and if u had the riding skills u could be up at the front or atleast finish on the same lap

its not allways easy to build a fast bike as ian would agree with me i see him pushing his bike back more times than he rode back through out a whole season or two... now thats dedication if i must say so my self

i started of with no previous bike exsperiance what so ever and for the first few seasons was allways getting lapped this was not through the front runners having faster bikes was just down to my lack of experiance in riding

now im reading that basically someone wants all the engines to be tunned by one person but thats just rediculous theres allways gunna be advantages in what ever u do its just down to who finds it first. and as for running with no fairing yh mabey it will mabey make it more classic but not everyone wants that. someone in my age group dont want to ride a old bike and with modern looking fairings this might help to bring youngsters into the club.

mabey if people spent less time worrying about what everyone else is doing and started to develop there engines then they will have a chance thats all i have to say
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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:03 am

Well put Michael what's that old saying? When the flag drops the bullshit stops and prep is everything
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:50 am

Hi Ian/Michael

just re read my last post I can see in it what your refering to but thins is not how I intended it to be taken,

cetainly never suggested all bikes should be tuned by the same person, not how Iread it Michael, what I was trying to say is tuning to a formula should be faiir, so in the interests of all, "to increase numbers", as its a bit ? eye opening when you find you have been racing against others who found a mechanical advantage within the rules that has been kept a secret, "it was not a level playing field, and formula racing is all about level playing fields, and guys I'm not complaining about riding at the back or being lapped either, far from it, I understand as I have just returned, it will take some time to get my riding skils and fettling skills honed back in again, and there has been pleanty of help from many camps and Im very thankful for this to.

the rest of what you both said "I agree with whole hartedly", and Ian spot on" mind you the site is busy again great! amazing what a bit of controversy does.

All the best Derek
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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:12 pm

Hi Derek

I don't mean to go on but when u say about people finding a mechanical advantage well were only human and we wouldn't be going as quick as we go today if people didn't do this the only way to stop this is like I sed all pay one person to tune them and have them sealed and I don't want this I think it would ruin the whole point in racing eg trying to find that little bit to make u faster

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john bass

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PostSubject: It´s never been any different...   Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:42 pm

it has never been any different, except that here you are as Club-Racers (as amateurs) not making money or publicity gain out of your mysteries.

I´ve just been reading in Classic Motorcyling Legends about the first American senior GP at Daytona. Mike Hailwood on an MV could only keep up with Benedicto Calderella on a Gilera 4 by tucking-in (streamlining) up the Gilera´s exhaust pipe... The Gilera´s gearbox gave up the ghost and Hailwood went on to win -- lapping the entire field twice.

At two laps adrift, Hartle, Read & Duff finished in that order a spit-distance apart. They knew from practice times there was no chance of the Norton (Hartle), Kirby-Matchless (Read) or Norton (Duff) winning but they raced-to-win what might be left after the faster Italian multis had left them a lap behind -- and then two laps behind ....

OK! so they had the motivation to finish in a good position `cos they were getting paid ....

For the club-racer it is annoying to know that the really fast bloke has something better than everybody else -- which none of the rest knows about --

-- except, perhaps (they do know) the fast bloke is a bit lighter anda bit leaner, can wrap his spidery length into a tight ball and make the most of the little bit of extra power he has, can make the most of his little bit more better road-holding he has, use his streamling (skirt) to better effect (by balling himself into it) than the rest which means that all these little bits of making-better-use-of, WHEN ADDED TOGETHER give him the right to be crowned King Of Speed -- of The Lot!!

The picture of Daytona GP 1964 (referred to above) sort of stirred some aggressive feelings within as I read the piece -- I was so frequently in that same situation with the Bantam² but things really changed with Andy´s ABS 250. I could really mix it with the front runners of Exotic Japanese flyers & Silverstone Greeves -- frequently doing a Caderella until the early difficulties were overcome.


²... Steve Price (at my son, Slick´s birthday party) told me that I couldn´t compare GP & WSB with CLUB Racing -- there is no way!! -- but I still do because I think I often raced as hard as some of the pros for just a little tin pot....!!

The "Will To Win" is not confined to only the front-runners.

Cheers!
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