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 THE WILL TO WIN

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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:56 am

Hi Michael -this one is going on "eh"
I for one "dont feel like you are going on", I feel this is a good debate to have, and you are just making your point, I have no issues with your views, but I thought I would respond "one last time on this", as I wanted to correct you on a small but very important point, there is a very big difference compared to running a "std Close ratio box" on the same bike running a snell box with modified sliders, its within the rules, Iike I said, I always believed in the "BSA Bantam tuning manual" and information that was given out in it at the time, but clearly as Im going on about this, I feel it is not a level playing field as in my mind "a Gearbox mod should be in te rules, and is not to do with tuning! its manipulation the rules to achieve a very important mechanical advantage. Those that know about this!!! "know what im talking about". I was mearly making a point about this. not asking for all the bikes to have the same tuner, pipe, port timimings etc, as your persistane what "Im really after is I would like to see" is the different g/box options, what they are, what is allowed ?0 and may be even some one will be kind enough to tell us the advantages/disadvantages. - Like others I understand, to have a much closer drop between second and top yeald's a significant advantage.

so back to the "other" point :- "its certainly not my wish Michael to have my bike tuned by anyone", I race Bantam's because it was really the only class for me, it suits my wishes as a hobby, and still does!!, never lost my ! enthusiasum for this class, just my "will to keep going", also like you I have family History in this class, "well actually exactly the same as you". I have both asked for help and recieved it in fact lots of it, tat the moment its like information overload.

Besides I have actually been offered many mounts to have fun on, "this was never for me, !well I did borrowed a few bikes (only bantam) four be exact "in 25+ years of racing" I broke two of them !!, and managed to win on one of the other.

I hope that clears your points "I'm looking forwards to the comming season, and all that it may bring. will we see you at Mallory, been whatching your Lydden exploits with interest (the photo mike refest to of you is a great actionshot). what are you hopping for for this comming season. ?

mine is to finish on the same lap as the leaders but not 2/3rds of a lap behind. this year


Kind regards Derek
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michaelbrown

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:42 pm

Hi Derek

When u say running a STD close ratio box is a disadvantage I disagree I know for a fact that the top 5 runners and me are all running the STD close ratio box and a few people have run the snell box but the way I see it there so expensive and would only give u a advantage on pull away and would loose out when going from second to third because the way they work correct me if I'm wrong is they have a closser 1st - 2nd but bigger 2nd to 3rd so in my eyes this would only give u a massive advantage at somewhere like three sisters so what's the
point in spending all that money on a gear box if it's only
going to help you at one circuit

And I'm hopping to be with the front runners this year after digesting the information given by Mick potter thanks alot btw and modifying the frame after exstecive testing through out the season I feel my bike is in within a chance now and it's all down to the will to win Smile
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:13 am

Hi Michael

Thank's on the boxes, always believed afterb 30+ years, this was a common belief, so I bow to your superior knowledge on this point. !!!!

I wish you well and good luck for the comming season, and with the "will to win".

Kind regards - Derek
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alan
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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:40 am

I tried the Snell gears at 3 Sisters, and found it very uncomfortable to ride with, I get better lap times with the BSA close ratio box, and Michael is correct, the jump between second and third is a killer! unless of course you have a seriously torquey motor.
Cheers,
Alan
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:56 am

I think a snell output pair are a huge dis-advantage and recommend if you find any
sell them to me. I only use a pair to make things more difficult for myself.

I know Ian Robbie Pete T have tried them in the past, and i know Derek has a set or 10?

What do you think of them?
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:19 am

I think I said this to Ian or you before but "you can not Kid", "a kidder"

and I just wrote a mission in reply to you but sadly lost it, hit the wrong key so its gone

anyway "I never new Rob had them, I new Ian and Pete T would have them tell"

its all in the setup and the rest of the package to go with it to make them work, "as you well know".!

anyway lets stick to the debate - Mike? what about adding to you "Mikes Gearbox page", by adding some helpful setup information next to each item, detailed as 1) 2) 3) 4)!!!! like how you would set it up, and with what gears you would use and on what circuits,! seems a reasonable request,?

This does not produce any more power! or revs so what does it do,!!!!!!!!! you could even added the benfit over the use of others.

I'm switching to the debate on weight, its less contravercial, I wll campaign for weight penalties, for those "too light".?
Seriously I feel we do need to find a way that is fair, and reasonable for all, not just the featherweights, I do not I;m almost down to a middlweight, but I would like to see it looked at properly, over a lengthy period, "I never bought the debate up" so seems others thinks the same too.

kind regards Derek
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michaelbrown

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:25 pm

Derek

I think u missing the point in what you wrote about the snell gears the word HAD this means they don't anymore and y do you think that is I'll leave that down to you to decide

Weight!!! Are we really going to go into this debate and penalise those who actually care about there weight I'm not just saying this as I'm am light because my point of view would be the same if i was heavy. The way I see it is that if your unhappy about ur weight then go on a diet problem solved
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john bass

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PostSubject: Just another challenge...   Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:27 am

Knowing that you were overweight for a Bantam and seeing the fleaweight, skinny blokeČ on the grid who was said to be very quick -- was just another Challenge...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<look at that right leg there!? weighed more than some of the whole bodies I raced against!!

Yeah! just another challenge ...
... particularly when youŽd seen him braking very early and going so gingerly through the corners that youŽd personally blasted throŽon full whack without touching the brakes! YouŽd know then that although the chance of winning was slim at least youŽd not finish behind him.
I just deleted the reply I made to Michael about people "...caring about their weight..." -- I do, even now!

Č.... in those Bad Old Days of run-&-bump start you could see who was skinny and who was chubby because the riders stood alongside their bikes on the grid and I always looked for whom it might be that IŽd get tucked in behind....

There is a lot more to being a successful road racer than just being a fleaweight, Derek! -- but you know that already and are just trying another wind-up!!

Cheers!
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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:52 am

Dereck when have you ever been contrivisial lol.

I have used snell gears in the past in the past in the ex Roger Louis bike for 3 sisters and the woodlands at cadders as you get a lower 1st and 2nd. Not convinced that it gave me an advantage but for those that want to try it many pairs have been found and brought by many people at auto jumbles for a reasnable price. How ever in my 2 current bikes i have and have always had a STANDARD CR BOX and will remain to have as i do not have any gear selection problems or anything else touch wood so if it ant broke dont fix it, there are plenty of other areas to reduce laptimes with the brain being one a well preped bike takes alot off the mind.

On the other point, we are not racing for multi million pound sponcership or world wide bike sales we are racing at club level for fun and personal satisfaction knowing that we all (well almost all) have to go to work monday morning its an enjoyable hobbie.

How ever i have heard that Holland and Barrett are doing 3 for the price of 1 on sliming products for those that are intrested lol!
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john bass

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PostSubject: What are Snell Gears?   Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:16 am

I know nothing about Snell gears and assume thereŽs a jump of ratio between 1st & 2nd ...and if the torque curve -- or the effective rev range is wide enough -- there shouldnŽt be any trouble racing with them --- hmmm?? But surely slipping the clutch takes care of that difficulty anyway???

The idea of Close Ratio gears is surely that the lower-gearŽs Tractive Effort curve droops to around the middle of the next gearŽs TE curve so that the engine speed stays on the rising part of the curve and does not `labourŽ in the next higher gear....

I have a feeling of a graph generating -- Oh! how boring??

I wonder if a Fluid-Flywheel could be made for a Bantam -- (Trevor?)

-- it would solve the problem of a big jump between gear ratios....

Oh! that hurt!!

Season starts soon -- donŽt forget that `g Ž can be painful if you go at it too mad too soon. All the best!

JayBee -- for John-Boy pretending to be Peter Pan.
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:03 am

"contrivisial" !!!! - Hmmm Ian/Michael, at last seems my sence of humer is being understood. and I like the quotes/jibes.

but seriously, ref the weight issue this is of course a very seriouse debate that should be re looked at I quite agree with michael and Ian light weight's or riders under 10 stone should carry a minimum of 3 stone in lead weaight spot on lads. if your proposing it Ill second that motion.


P.S michael Im on a diet I eat loads of fruit, the draw back of this is Im spending too much time in the loo "reading old magazines".

see you at the practice day, I hope, I will arrive later rather, not my wish but as a result of me working in Aberdeen.

regards Derek
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john bass

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PostSubject: Seriously now...   Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:39 am

Seriously now -- the season is almost upon you! -- if anyone out there needs a rapid reducing diet-plan just contact me by PM -- low-cost I assure you. Well worth every pound of it -- the diet is not dangerous to health and was the brain-child of Professor Dr Yutkin of the London College of Tropical Medicine, UK -- as seen on BBC 1 TV in the late Sixties....


Last edited by john bass on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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john bass

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PostSubject: Seriously Now -- 2....   Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:45 am

Seriously now -- The Will To Win can be bad for your health!

Uh oh! thatŽd be another of those sickly nostalgia nonsenses that I said IŽd stop posting....

Cheers!
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john bass

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PostSubject: Ah! Snell gears...   Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:58 am

Ah! Snell gears ...

So the big gap comes between 2nd and Top...?

Well, the torque curve shape would take care of that if it drooped at the high speed end of the curve. So far I have seen only one Bantam torque curve that would be suitable -- in that rerspect -- so from a theoreticalČČ point of view I wonder why the Snell gears were used at all??

ČČ... the idea is that if the engine is at max revs and the bike comes to a sudden uphill slope -- or suddenly into a head wind -- the reduction of (Road and...) engine speed has the torque increasing. I have seen several Bantam torque curves where this is the opposite: the reduction of speed brings a reduction of torque -- which then means a more severe loss of road-speed where changing down is the only thing left available -- which also means that with a big drop down in ratio the competitiveness has been lost.

Cheers!
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michaelbrown

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:23 pm

Is there anyone that is actually under 10 stone?
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Ned

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:26 am

michaelbrown wrote:
Is there anyone that is actually under 10 stone?

Mick Potter could be he's no bigger than a filleted earwig Laughing and I doubt Mark Carkeek and Sticky are much more.
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mjpowell

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:24 am

Derek put a set of 'your' 25/22 output pair in your motor and you report back to us if there any good?
Those who have used them in the past seem to say they are no good...?
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john bass

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PostSubject: Riders under ten stone...   Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:39 am

Any riders under ten stone, Michael?

With hamburgers & chips everywhere -- probably not these days -- but in the time just after the war there were millions -- and a lot of them raced Bantams. I could name a dozen -- now -- just off the top of my head -- but I wonŽt because that would not be nice....

During one of our Cadwell meetings one lightweight was blown off the track between Charlies and Park Corner which I think proves the point! In that respect the heavier blokes have the advantage of holding better their intended race-line through the curves.

Cheers!
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Mick Potter

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:49 am

To stop any speculation about my weight. I am not only under 10 sone but under 9 stone. 8 stone 10lbs stark naked to be acurate. Befor Christmas I was 9 & half stone, even I go on a diet befor the new season.

Mick.
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:20 pm

Hi Mike - I have been really busy looks like the recession is at last comming to an end, anyway managed to get most things ready for some more experiments, while I do intend to put a set of 22/25 backinto my 125 it wont be until I have sorted another item, !

but our 175 will have them from the word Go, !!

Interesting weight!!, John Im still waiting for those calc's to tell us how far behind they should start a 9 stone rider compaared to an 12.4 stone rider. I recon it will be about 2 minutes, so on some circuits they need to stat from the pit lane a lap later.?

regards Derek
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john bass

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PostSubject: Can`t believe it...   Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:25 pm

Cannot believe it -- I saw a picture of you, Mick, a few years back and you looked heavier than that!!

Just shows how photos can be deceptive ...

And Derek, IŽd never say the lightweights should be handicapped -- its called racing -- it might have an unfair bias -- but just look at that Powell fella, heŽs nearly 2 stone heavier than a lot of his opponents. I think a lot of The Will To Win is attributable to the thing on the right clip-on being back against its stop.

Thing to do is get yourself a big old bike -- say a 1970, 1300cc Honda -- and race that as well the Bantam ...??

Snooker is a fair sort of game -- even chubbies can win!

Cheers!
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:48 pm

cheek Im no chubby - chubby

Derek
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john bass

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PostSubject: Did not say you were...   Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:44 pm

I didnŽt say you were a chubby Derek!

You donŽt even look ten stone on your Avatar Derek -- I reckon you are just trying a Wind-Up....

Cheers!
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Derek

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PostSubject: Re: THE WILL TO WIN   Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:24 am

Blimey John "winding you up"

John I just would not do that, its not in my nature mate!.

regards Derek
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john bass

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PostSubject: It is in the eyes ...   Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:17 am

The will to win can be seen in the wild staring eyes of the one who keeps kicking the tyres of his van...

Not the one who looks happy whilst scoffing a Chip-butty!!

Cheers!
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