ignition question

My dad deals with a company who do replacement generators and starter motors for bikes, and noticed in their catalogue that they have a Bantam ignition system for trials bantams, that fits straight on the original D10 to D14 type bantam shafts and plate without any modding. We enquired about it and they said it's the same as the pvl, self generating, non adjustable, and also cheaper.
My dad asked me why this couldnt be an option for the D10/D14 type 175's next year, as it would be all round a lot cheaper than getting shafts and plates machined to take a pvl.

here's a picture of it:



and here's the spill from the website


Self Generating Internal Rotor kits
Single Spark Plug System

High energy self generating cdi ignition system located in place of the original Wipac alternator in the left hand cover.

The stator produces the energy and timing signal which feed the combined cdi, producing a high voltage spark, very easy starting at 250rpm

Ignition advance is fully electronic with a timing curve specifically designed for trials with smooth power delivery at low rpm

Connects directly to the CDI unit, and HT coil

Commonly fitted for race applications where the low inertia flywheel allows for rapid engine acceleration

Available for many different models e.g. classic racing & trials, karts etc


opinions please?
Zak

looks quite good though would rather stick to PPVL for 125's. Might change if they do a 125 version!

Tim

yeah, i kinda meant, because with the 175's you are limited to either motoplat or pvl, but you have to have shafts and plates made up for it to fit, maybe this could be another viable option, as it's pretty much the same as PVL, but fits straight on.

Hi Zak and Tim,
the trials versions do not rev as high as the kart/motorcycle versions, and the generating coils are of a different resistance value, you will find the generating coils get too hot and will fail on you fairly quickly, and also they do no give a strong spark at the higher revs we use for road racing.
Basically they are not the ones to use regardless of the price!
Cheers,
Alan

i think i forgot to mention that they do one of these for track use aswell, so same fittings, just a higher revving kit.

just thought it may be easier for the 175's rather than finding someone to do all that machining for the pvl

hi zak, can you post the website for this ignition or where i can get one from, thanks

take your pick

http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/stator-kit-gallery-electrical-parts-for-motorcycles-electrex-world-ltd-8537-0.html

Please be aware that for Formula 175, rules state:-

(i) Ignition to be fixed timing. (i.e. not advancing or retarding type), however Ducati Energer and PVL straight line (max 4deg retard are allowed

thanks zak.

ptibbitt125 wrote:

Please be aware that for Formula 175, rules state:-

(i) Ignition to be fixed timing. (i.e. not advancing or retarding type), however Ducati Energer and PVL straight line (max 4deg retard are allowed

i know, but i was just trying to say, maybe this could be an addition to the rules for 175's for next year, as it's a straight on fit and the classic racing type is still fixed timing.


if not then no worries, i'll just get the stuff machined up

i know this thread was kind of settled a while back now, but i've just literally got an email from electrix world after emailing them about 4 weeks ago lol. Basically it says that this ignition is a copy of the PVL but will mount straight on late bantam cases/crankshaft. They said the racing appliction is designed to rev at around 10000 rpm, and can be set to lots of retard.

As long as it's set to the max 4 degrees to keep in line with the rules, could this be a viable option for 175 Regs??

thanks
Zak

Had a quick look and pricing on this kit is £145, and standard appears to be 4.5 degrees advance.

Given it would allow use of standard cranks and unmodified cases it might actually make for an even simpler 175 build, and anything that makes it easier to get out there has to be worth considering.

One for review perhaps ?

James

As James points out , Anything that makes life easier to get a bike on track could be a good thing . I'm fortunate in having the machinery and skills to modify/make a crankshaft but I would probably go with a bolt on option for ignition . Though the fact that you would probably be changing the connecting rod so the crank would be apart anyway means you would only be saving the cost of machining the shaft ?

Paul

If this ignition gives a maximum of 4.5 degrees retard, over an engine speed range of 0 to 10,000 rpm, I would have thought it OK and within the meaning/intent of the rules.



What does Mike Powell think?

I think this ignition from electrex world needs adding in to the list of acceptable ignition for 175's!! Does anyone think it is a bad idea? Zak can you post the ignition curve on the forum?

if i can get a picture of it i shall post it i'll email them now

update - just emailed them, they should get the email tomorrow or Tuesday, whatever reply, and ignition curve(s) i receive will be posted up asap

Zak any news on ignition curve? is it within the rules? Or is it time to change the rules ref 175 ignitions? i.e. no restrictions(like 125) or back to contact breakers??

Hi Mike, i haven't had anything back yet by email. I shall phone them this afternoon and chase them up

thanks
Zak

Got an email with the ignition curve, and even fitting instructions here's the curve

Hi Zak,
The Ignition is not suited to the 175 class as the overall retardation is too great ie:
16 - 7 = 9 degrees overall.
The retardation starts actually starts at 16 degrees before BTDC because of the inital advance it creates, and ends at 7 degrees (ish) so it is the overall figure that counts. This ignition would be suited to the 125 class.
Sorry on that!
Hope you can get along to meet at Cadwell.
Alan

Hi alan, the guy said in his email he can set it to whatever is needed to make it suit the class. When i emailed him he said he would release the kit as the "STK 176 formula bantam" with whatever ignition curve is suited to the 175 class. would this help? and can't make cadwell i'm afraid, can't get the time off work :\

Hi Zak,
If your guy can meet the 4 degrees max retard then there is no reason why you shouldn't use the system. Maybe I should speak to him and help set down a 175 bantam class specification? and then everyone can take advantage of the improved price and fitting.
Shouldn't be a problem, so if you are OK then I will contact after Cadwell.
Cheers,
Alan

alan wrote:

Hi Zak,

The retardation starts actually starts at 16 degrees before BTDC because of the initial advance it creates, and ends at 7 degrees (ish) so it is the overall figure that counts.

So the retard after the advance is what counts? i thought it would have counted from the line of origin, in this case 12 degrees

and on average bantams rev to around 8500? the red line intersecting the y axis is equal to 12 degrees according to the instructions i was given. so for an engine at 8500, it would be around 3 degrees (ish) i think :S surely you wont get a bantam revving to 12000rpm realistically? i could be wrong, i've never really studied ignition (or redlining a bantam) in detail lol.

if you could give me some figures for a suitable spec my dad said he could contact him over the weekend or whenever. let me know and i'll get it sorted

zak_perrin wrote:

alan wrote:

Hi Zak,

The retardation starts actually starts at 16 degrees before BTDC because of the initial advance it creates, and ends at 7 degrees (ish) so it is the overall figure that counts.

So the retard after the advance is what counts?

and on average bantams rev to around 8500? the red line intersecting the y axis is equal to 12 degrees according to the instructions i was given. so for an engine at 8500, it would be around 3 degrees (ish) i think :S surely you wont get a bantam revving to 12000rpm realistically? i could be wrong, i've never really studied ignition in detail lol.

if you could give me some figures for a suitable spec my dad said he could contact him over the weekend or whenever. let me know and i'll get it sorted

I've rode one that revs to 13,000 and think my old green one revs to 10500 which is a little high for a 175.

keep going though Zak think you might be onto something here and if not get in touch with Borat at Zeeltronic he's a very clever bloke and always approachable I have one of his systems for a LC

Or better still just get a good old PVL and forget about ignition for now and concentrate on the rest of the tuning, big gains can be made through pipe formula devolopment, porting, compression and correct carburation and even more by getting out and riding quicker and quicker

haha fair shout Tony, wow 13000........ i never expected that much lol.

everything else is relatively ready and just needs odd bits before it can take shape. this would be a great option because it just bolts on and i would just have to press the new conrod in the crank rather than get it all machined down. as i said, my guy at electrex world will happily program the ignition to whatever is needed so i just need to know what's needed.

got all my formula books at the ready for pipe and carb made a handy little workbook on excel using Flemming pipe formulae, so i just input the variables and bam