Wacky 50

Just had to post this image, I mean is that wacky or what! You just know that all is right with the world when guys can come up with stuff like this?

Trevor

Whacky is right!

Flashy number plate probably identifies it as a Yanky Doodle Dandy.

Looks as if a hybrid: when the battery runs down -- or there a steep hill-- the gas.motor takes over.

I could imagine it´d be fun if organised as a race of hybrids -- not taken too seriously, of course.

What´s the background, Trevor?

Cheers!

JayBee.

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Trevor

Fascinating!

The RE Flying Flea -- WW2 -- had a more comfortable looking seat.

Cheers!

JayBee.

Here you go John, a nice Sunday morning nostalgia  journey, takes you back doesn`t it, when I was a small schoolboy a pal of mine`s father went to work on one of these, in all weathers. He was still chugging around on it when I was then in my late teens!

Trevor

I had one Trevor -- lasted many years as my work Hack. Believe it or not in 1953 I got done for speeding in Walthamstow on it --of course I was going downhil with wind behind. I fell alseep  on it returning from a Mallory Grass Track Championship meeting and woke up in a ditch under moon and stars  and stll rode it home. I  fell off it many times returning from Chelmsford MCCClub meeting nights and rode it with footrests missing and buckled wheels. There were corners I was convinced I could get round flat out -- of course we didn´t have the tyres for fast cornering  in those days -- Dunlop triangulars came in  2 decades later. It also carried enormous loads never meant for it ...

In the first writing of this,  I misquoted Bill Lomas and am correcting it  now 21st Sept...:-

Bill Lomas told an interesting tale in Classic Motorcycling Legends #33  Summer 1995 ... about RE´s Chief Development  Engineer, Tony Wilson-Jones, who weighed about 16stone and insisted on riding an RE 125 to and from work including his lunch break. One morning Bill quietly fitted a `Tuned´*** barrel and head and Tony Wilson  . Jones came back after lunch enthusing about the new petrol-oil mixture he was using saying it had put more than seven or eight mph on the bike, that it went uphill in second insted of bottom  gear. During the afternoon  Bill replaced the original head and barrel. Next day Mr Wilson-Jones was rather late coming in. It transpired that he had spent considerable time running the bike backwards and forwards over the route trying to find a reason for loss of performance. ....  

Such was just a joke among the RE Blue Collar personnel yet there was a general   level of misunderstanding in Britain´s top level engineering and business accumen & common-sense  of the day:  according to Bill, when he first started at RE  there were two 125 DKW motorcycles leaning folornly against the back wall. Obviously, the view was that the design might be copied at some future date....

One day a van from BSAs picked them up and a year later the BSA Bantam appeared for sale.

That is how BSA got down to making the Bantam which we all know was a success story never to be repeated in the British motorcyle Manufacturing history.  

***Bill apparently was a successful tuner of Enfield two-stroke engines -- Jack Booker successfully scrambled and Trialed an RE 125 tuned by Bill....


Apologies for the misquote...

Cheers!

JayBee....strugling on as John-Boy....

I am trying to remember where i saw this Whacky 175 Francis Barnett ...

It was prepared for the 1924, 175cc TT in the Island and was ridden to 6th place by Tommy G. Meeten.

The frame was all straight tubes -- which a production FB also used. The production model´s tank was triangular to match the straight tubes -- side view that is.

Memory has it that the TT bike looked a mess of straight tubes and a hideous shaped -- half-barrel like tank -- and this is the bit you will not believe --


-- THE GEARBOX WAS MOUNTED IN FRONT OF THE ENGINE...!

I remember asking at the time how the transmission was achieved when the gearbox was such a long way from the rear wheel by being mounted IN FRONT of the engine´s crankcase and was told that was not known....

The designer could not have done it for sake of weight distribution to the rear because the ugly tank was well forward ...

Any offers?

Cheers!

JayBee.

Googled it and this is the best I could do for you John. no mention of transmission.

Tommy Meeten's association with Francis-Barnett had begun in 1924 when he rode a Blackburne-engined model to 6th place in that year's Ultra-Lightweight TT in the Isle of Man. The Blackburne was, of course, a four-stroke but from then onwards Tommy Meeten's involvement with the Coventry firm would be restricted to its two-stroke models, which he rode successfully in trials as well as at Brooklands.

You didn´t seem surprised by the gearbox being in front of the engine, Ned?

Does that mean you don´t believe me? or had you seen it before?

I know there´s a picture*** of the heap somewhere -- definitely had the gearbox in FRONT of the crankcase
and it -- the gearbox was finned -- so maybe FB had the idea that too much torque was being lost to friction in the gearbox and when one thinks of 12% power loss from engine to back wheel that WAS STATED ON HERE the gearbox must get very warm....

OK -- so I´ll go back to the land of nod where gearboxes sit under the saddle (Douglas)  and in front of the engine.

Cheers!

***I had a scrap-book of all pre-war British Motorcycles when in the army in 1948 which was stolen when I was taken ill and went into Dock -- probably one of the Rob-All-My-Comrades RAMC orderlies has it and could show a pic on here --
if the thieving gitt is still alive, of course.

Not sure if this fully qualifies as wacky, but is suitably over the top to be a worthy candidate. Those forks and brake are certainly over-kill and there is a 50cc engine in there somewhere, but like the others in this montage the engineering is superb!

Trevor

Fantastic forks too!

Cheers!

Nigel you will be interested in this little Free Tech 50! More exquisite, pioneering engineering techniques using the ever popular 50cc engine no gear box on this little gem?

Not really wacky just plain wonderful !

Trevor

Now that is a wonder to behold.

Call me Dafty but isn´t that a variable ratio, belt and cone-pulley arrangement??

Beautiful pipe and splendid work all round....

Cheers!

Here`s a nice one for you Mick, being the Bantam racing frame and suspension guru I`m sure you can derive a lot of `inspiration` from this gem of an unknown bike? Any one have any ideas as to it`s origins?

Just goes to show that there is little that is new; spine frame, single sided, cantilevered rear suspension spring unit under the saddle. Not sure about the front end mind you, seems a trifle under supported at the front wheel spindle.

Cheers, Trevor

Evening Trevor, yes c v t.. easy the uknown bike .... ive seen that engine somewhere else ... maybe ema or kb..

About this time, a year ago, a German here reckoned I was pulling his leg when I said an experimental 50cc Susuki racer revved to over 20,000 rpm and had 21 gears by using a two-speed rear axle...

I feel pretty sure that in the early sixties, on the IoM,  50cc angines were revving up above  18.000rpm and an experimental Susuki DID have 9 gears....

So, can anyone  put me out of my memory-misery and tell me what the facts are regarding 50cc racer´s  max revs and whether there really was a race bike that had so many gears...??

i might just meet this German again....

Cheers!

JayBee.... er? -- I think ...?

Here you go John, Suzuki 14 speeder, I think? Kriedler had a 6 speed box with a 2 speed out rigger for their 50cc 12 speeder. How on earth you can tell what gear you are in is quite beyond me, but lovely `Swiss Watch` style of engineering.

Trevor

Now if your are thinking of building a replica............

http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12576&sid=f5b092e14c7347077bd4ee19a7ccb637

Thanks Trevor!

As I understood it from the IoM... the 50s using 9 speed boxes in the early sixties had the spectators hearing "20 farsand" revs all the way uphill from Ramsey Waterworks .... with the rider just dropping a cog when the revs dropped a few hundred...

Sort of makes me feel it was a sad thing to lose the 50, 125, 250,350  and 500cc Classes to these weirdy formulae I don´t understand.

Aw hush, John-Boy says the man in a white-coat -- just take this pill and relax....


Schnarsch!

Thanks Jimmy -- I´ll need more time on that lot. Think if all these blokes had been in British motor bike factories 60 years back and had had their way we´d never have lost our motor-bike industry.....

OK OK man in a white coat -- I shall take the pill....

I remember Tommy Robb saying that at one Japanese GP when he was riding a twin Honda in the 50 class, the only way he could stay with the opposition was to take the revs well past the red line to around 22,000 rpm. The factory doubted this was possible so repeated the experience on a test bench and, sure enough, the engine took the hammering without damage.

Anyone interested in watching an on board lap of the TT course at Bantam speed (!) ie, average of 95mph link to

http://www.bsaotter.com/man-ic_triumph_cub_project..html

and click about 3/4 way down.

Nice anecdote's Jimmie, what a wonderful sound that engine must have made, flat out on open megaphones and spinning at 20,000+ rpm!

I`ve just read apiece by Hugh Anderson about his days with Suzuki, apparently the only way he could make any progress with the bewildering number of gears was to change in groups of three at a time! He reckoned it to be a `Numerical Nightmare`!

I love this cutaway image of the 50cc Kreidler engine showing a four speed main box with a three ratio supplementary box bolted to the side. A later version had a 6 ratio main box with a 2 gear extra.

Cheers, Trevor

Thanks Jimmie, at last I´ve seen 22,000rpm in black & white and 14 gears in one box Trevor! I. shall present these "wild" bits to the unbelieving German when I see him again.

I was thinking about Torque versus Power again and what the racer needs -- or perhaps, what the Choossy rider needs. The torque curve shape along with as wide a possible power-band is surely very important, or just as important as obtaining the max possible torque at a high speed. That is the torque curve being the same shape as the MEP curve means the engine breathing as best it can over the whole width of the power-band instead of say, just breathing excellently at somewhere near maximum speed. Not forgetting, of course that with bigger bikes when changine up the torque is increasing with engine speed unless the clutch is being slipped as a virtual torge-converter.

I know of one particular Superbike Rider , 'X' (not Carl Fogarty...) who had engine (a) with 6 more bhp at the top end with the max torque at 90% of max speed and his reserve engine (b) with that 6 horspower short that had its max torque at 75% of max speed. In practice X fell off when using engine (a) and said he´d give up and would not race but his Spannerman insited he go out using engine (b) and X finished in second place telling evreryone that engine (b) was marvel although short on power .....

Hope that was alright?

Cheers!

Wonder if this is where Charlie Edwards got the idea for his 5 speed box from (details of his bike were posted on Oct 8 2011). He cut the gearbox of a spare Bantam, inverted it and bolted it to the left of the main one. However, once he got into 5th he could not change down and had to carry his speed through the corners!

A very interesting picture of a small Green 50cc machine with a single side swing arm with a spring and no visible damping & a one sided fork leg. BUT HOLD ON WHAT IS THIS IN THE CENTER OF THE PICTURE BUT A Motobi 125 Engine (count the spark plug caps everyone) & wear is the exhaust.

This is obviously a photo shop that someone has made up.

So my question has to be who is trying to trick who.

Mick.