Pre 1963 Bantam

Looking at the bits and pieces in my garage I was thinking about building a pre 1963 sub 250cc class legal bantam for next season.

What would have been state of the art in Bantam circles in '63, e.g front brake , forks and Carburettor

Any thoughts ?

James

Blimey James, poor old Alan has got his work cut out getting your engine ready for this season let alone starting on this one!

No, seriously I wasnt around BRC mtgs then , but they would have been using bantam forks, bantam hub brakes - you can do back to back a la Launchbury. No fairing. Carbs would have been Amal TT. Ignition - not sure but suspect contact breaker driving coil. Not sure if fuel tanks were free formula by 1963, probably not. Steel rims definitely

James good idea!!
Pre 63 250 has to have all components from same manufacturer in this case BSA.
back to back hubs are also not allowed? Strangly?

If i was doing it would have D7 frame and lowered subframe, C15 forks, A10 alloy front hub wheel single leading shoe job but pretty big! Alloy rims are allowed. C15/44 Victor type tank or C25/B25 2and a half gallon fibreglass tank. Engine Btw cylinder made rounder Todd head, try and accomadate a big bore 66plus and a longer stroke too ... Gardner Carb Early type

Check BHR rules for event 2 came with your regs...

Mike

actually Mike PETER is spot on just spoke to dad steel rims and fiberglass tanks were "not allowed"

if i was building one I would just turn up with the one I have possibly have to remove the reed valve the rest is history.

regds Derek

Well if James wants to go for a parade conforming to Bantam Racing Club rules circa 1962 Lovely!!

But if he wants to race competitively(?) I was thinking racing to BHR event 2 rules...

Though i realise James won't have said parts in the shed....

Mike

This came about partially because I have a lot of Bantam bits i will never use in my Garage and partially from Nick's Superstock Bantam idea, and TEds comments about the numbers of older bikes in sheds.

Mike is correct this was about building a BHR legal pre 63, to provide a second championship to contend in but also if a bantam can be built cheaply to a competitive standard in this class maybe it could attract a few older ones out of sheds and onto the track, and if you have one you may as well run it in the Bantam class as well.

Exhausts have to meet sound standards to an expansion pipe will be ok and the ignition rules seem to be based around what can be seen rather than originality so options there

There is nof course event 6a specials to 73 / 67 for two strokes does the extra four years offer any advantages ???

James

James I've got some Pre 1963 Tuning Manuals if I can scan them in for you if you want. About 4-6 pages of the stuff. PM me if interested.

T

Evening James ,
I like your angle on building a bike to fit another class, would also help as 175 spare . I would like to comment on the point you made regarding old bikes in sheds ,garages & workshops that have been gathering dust i wonder if people are intimidated by the pace of the latest breed of racers and this is stopping some returing to the track.
As i have raced with a number of clubs you could race in some classes with a bike that did not drop into that actual class and were entered as a non event competitor thus being able to race but unable to score.A good system in my opinion.do we know if BHR have or would adopt something similar.
I know we would like to see a few more bants on the grid so anyway of helping must be
encouraged .
I also fully understand that many others love the idea of building & racing a bike from scratch and this should always be the main focus of the club but lets open or minds
and find an easy way for people to start.
No disrespect to anyone but apart from Ian ,Michael & snowy the remainder of us are old gits and wont be racing forever. Yes it would great for us to think its easy to obtain all the bits to build a good racer in reality its not (sorry Derek & others)but its a fact .
How many dads are out there looking at our class but are just put off because they cannot get a bike for their lad to race?
Lets get something new going in bantam racing After all we are meant to be racing ,bring it on the more the merrier .

P.s hope i havent offended anyone . Nick

Hi Nick you don't offend me , and sorry but i think your talking a load of old ball's and cricket bats,?

"I Don't agree"

But like Ted said the Perfect formula /class, and the new 175cc ! my opinion, they are available, with a small amount of hard work and some engineering help, these bikes/ parts / gears , and knowledge available, to get you going are readily available.


Derek

Morning chaps,
thanks for your opinion Derek . trying to get some response from others as your previous post about people just looking in and not posting.
Just a last point about small grids of bantams we must still try and increase interest and numbers ?
what do you think guys ?

Nick

Hi Nick and all others,
The "Superstock" idea is worth some though during this season, Maybe we can consider an easy way of getting new starters to drag out pretty standard machines to fill up the grid with an "easy in" formula, then pushing the new starters to step up to "Pukka" race machines a year later using the Superstocks as the base.
Though for the day... 6 more machines on average and we can have Bantam only races.
All thoughts good and bad greatfully received!
Alan

For my tuppence worth I agree with Nick and think Derek is talking tosh (no offence intended Derek:-), it is true that you can build a 175 with limited resources (but not that limited) but the future of Bantam racing may not lie with people with previous experience and a complete bike and shed full of spares rejoining the fold.


So is the attraction of Bantam racing the engineering challenge , the racing or nostalgia

I am not sure how many people would have the experience or knowledge to split a crank machine the pin holes put two drive sides together machine a new taper, design cut roll and weld an exhaust machine cases bore a barrell etc etc etc. We are currently fortunate in that we have Tom and Brian and others who can undertake this engineering but they are unfortunatley a finite resource.

With entries , fuel and other overheads I would guess you need £2500 a year before you touch a bike yes Engineering help is available but unless you have very deep pockets or are very patient to use jobbing engineers. So anything that reduces these cost must help.

I recently attended a careers fair at Loughborough university and the number of engineering graduates is tiny. I have a friend who is a technology teacher guess what the metalwork areas and lathes are bieng ripped out- its unfortunate but true we are not producing enough next generation engineers. In Lincoln 25 years ago there were numerous low cost jobbing enginners doing odd jobs for larger businesses and private individuals these have nearly all gone.

My Generation just about remember Bantams as cheap field bikes my Nephews in there 20's remember RD125, CBR125 Hondas, Suzuki GS etc and we have to consider the alternate options - £1500 will buy you a nice little rs125 with spares you can take it to 100 places to be maintained and tuned and spares are two a penny. You can race in large grids and reliability is high.

So if the engineeering challenge wont get people on the track and nostalgia passes its best before date then the racing is the key.

I think with work Nicks proposal may make it more accessible we just need to market it to get bums on seats, a super standard 175 that anyone can build without engineering support or a class that allows and pulls older bikes out of sheds and back on the track.


James

Hi all

James "Too-shay"!!

"now seem's like this formulas bantam supersport has a lot of support", so what do others think.

James Al & Nick
I will volunteer a spare Honda 600 supersport tuned engine for the first mad man brave enough the shoe horn one into a std Bantam frame, "with std bantam brakes" make my eye's water just thinking about it.

are you all realy seriouse. ! is this a wind up !! our are you jokers just trying to provove me or what.!!!! i hope i did'nt disapoint you.!

still think your all talking cricket bats.!!

regards Derek

Chaps,
dont know what you think but i am sure with a few more riders on the grid we could all have some more serious fun.As things stand most of the field just spread out and are not actually racing anyone.seems a bit pointless cruising round on your own? more bikes have got to compress things?
so the superstock ,proddy ,rookie ,standard call it what you like 175 thing aint no wind up.
any ideas as Al said we could have our own race?
how about some sort of loose spec list to bat about i ve got my cricket bat and i think Dereks got his.
Nick

I think you´d need some really determined blokes -- as an organised team -- to do what has been suggested. As James pointed out the racer needs quite a bit of Spare Cash to be able to race and the club needs dedicated people to organise and orchestrate the happenings. During the short time I was Chairman of the BRC we had around 650 club members (with many not paying their membership fees) , a hard working committee some wonderful, volunteer helpers -- marshals, timekeepers and gofors and were probably lucky in being able to run 12-13 metings per year and still breaking even...
...
In 1968 when I joined the BRC it really was `Racing On The Cheap´. Some of the bikes in the other Classes than Bantam were fascinating in how little they cost, particularly the Up to 1000cc Allcomers and quite often in how they looked as if they had been `thrown´ together.
If you´ve seen the film, "The World´s Fastest Indian" which depicts Burt Monro´s record breaker having bits of kitchen implements holding it together and a champagne cork as a tank cap you´d have a good idea of what I mean.
...
Before Wobbleyman -- Colin Aldridge -- got his Bantam he had a 500cc Triumph of doubtful marque because it was a bitza in terms of the age and marque of its various parts. The frame & tank were hand painted and the split saddle well taped-up but at a Llandow meeting I saw him finish second to a brand-new looking 1000cc production racer ... At another meeting I saw a 1000cc Bitza that several people said should not be allowed to practice much less get onto the grid but the scrutineers could not fail it and to prove the point the bike finished a good second in the race.
I think that without these "Bitza racing members" attending our meetings we could well have gone belly-up financially...
---
Icarus-2 Bantam, which I mentioned earlier was built as a hack-handling-experiment out of bits I had lying about (including a new set of close-ratio gears) was a sign of what was possible in those times. I estimated its cost at just over 40quid. If I´d gone a bit further with the expenditure etc...etc... it could have been a competitive racer.
...
And then, coming to the other side of the medal was the time - in `72 -- I cast myself in the role of scrutineer and found a wonderful looking, well prepared Bantam had a cracked frame. Where the saddle down-tube enters the swinging-arm lug the tube was cracked all the way round. The rider went ape, of course, there could never be such a thing, he said -- I had to prove it. The bantam had been well cleaned but in the warming up around the pits, before bringing it to scrutineering some rust dust had shown up at that place mentioned: Just above the swinging-arm lug the red dust showed and it was obvious that movement there caused the dust to come out of the crack. With several of us manhandling the Bantam we proved that it was other bits and the fairing holding the bike together.
I heard of one other case of this failure -- has anyone else known such ...?
...
The come down of these remarks is that with all the discipline and modern day rules surround the sport I doubt very much if those carefree days of late 60´s early 70´s could ever be repeated.
Go well and keep well!
Cheers!
JayBee.

I must agree with James about the "Aprilia" option that is open. Before I even discovered this site and this sort of racing, I originally had the idea of going into the Aprilia Superteen challenge with the rental of a friend's bike, but it is far from that I guess. Seeing that it does cost £1500< per season per bike for the "challenge", there was no point; thus I reluctantly decided to have a search around for any classic racing, and this is how I came to find this site and members alike.. (Good thing then, I would've been skint by almost half a season!)

T