methanol bantam

hi just asking could i run my 150cc bantam on methanol and would it still be reliable??

any help would be great.....

Hehe... Was it reliable beforehand!?

yes it is very reliable

I'm glad one is!

If you do it right, I can't see why it would make the bike unreliable.

I imagine your number one problem would be lubrication. I would think it would be a good idea to talk to one or two oil manufacturers and ask their advice on the right product and the right quantities.

Obviously you'll need to make sure your entire fuel system is capable of flowing roughly 3 times more fuel. That means fuel tap, filter, hose, float valve, jets.

You'll also want a nice, high CR.

And you won't wont to be leaving methanol inside everywhere as it will corrode nearly everything and degrade your elastomers.

Can anyone else think of anything I missed?

The famous Walsh Bantam was run on methanol. Bill Lomas -- of GP fame was involved with it when in Australia. I´ve no doubt if you write to one of the British MC mags they can tell you how to contact Bill. On grass track, way back... I used a 500cc JAP speedway motor which had about 1/8" (#1200) hole as a main jet -- running weak melts piston crowns... I know its chalk & cheese (500cc -- 4 stroke compared with a 175 -- 2 stroke) but my engine had 16 : 1 (static measured) compression ratio and I can´t remember what Bill said the Walsh Bantam´s CR was...?
All the best!
JayBee.

You might want to consider;

The lethal dose of pure methanol is estimates to be 1-2 mL/kg (Jacobsen 1986); however, permanent blindness and death have been reported with as little as 0.1 mL/kg (6-10 mL in adults) (ATSDR 1993).

I dont think Methanol can be removed by the body so levels build over a number of years, same problem with Iodine

I'm with James - bloody dangerous stuff don't go near it! Luckily the bantam rules forbid the use of methanol as a fuel!! You can run methanol in British Hitoric Racing but not in the "Bantam Class" !!

Mike

Basically its a waste of time.

It works well on 4 strokes, because you can take the expansion ratio (compression ratio) up to about 16:1 without detonation, thus you can expand the burning gas about 12 times before the exh valve opens and dumps cyl pressure. Thats a lot of work got out of the fuel, and thus power.

On 2 strokes I think you would be lucky to expand the gas by 4 times, as exh port opens half way down piston travel. So not much more work out than with petrol.

But you may ask why cant we raise 2 stroke CR to 20:1 on methanol?

Doubtless Herr Bass will be along to answer or correct this

Not to correct Peter -- just to add....
...
My onlyexperience with methanol has been on 4 strokes: Two on the grass-track: (1) 500 JAP in Enfield Bullet frame -- known as "The Jelly Machine" because it was virtually uncontrollable most of the time... 16.5:1 CR---
(2) 1937 - 250cc AJS engined Bitza -- 10.5:1 CR -- was fast, could ride that with feet up on wet grass and still be in the first 3 ...
...
On the road : My 1927 Triumph 500 with 9.5:1CR at two VMCC road race meetings, Cadwell and Brands -- very quick: The hand gear operation and constant jumping out of gear prevented good finishes but was in front of Nortons and BSAs and other oddities at the end...

...I must again refer to the Walsh Bantam that Maurice Quincey rode to many victories -- over 250s -- in Australia. Had a megaphone exhaust and used a single 16 thou piston ring which had to be changed between practice and races... I think the CR was stated as 11:1 which means over petrol the thermal efficiency gain is so small as to not be worth the bother. 11:1CR is surely OK on super petrol, these days -- isn´t it? Not forgetting the higher the compression ratio the greater the dynamic resistance when the pistion approaches TDC. A lower static-CR with optimum air-flow (from clever porting) giving a higher dynamic CR means the engine will rev on, up to higher revs...
... I think one of the major advantages of methanol -- particularly with the additive Victor Martin Speedway Co. used -- was its slow burning rate which meant the pressure-volume envelope was flatter-longer after piston top-dead-centre. This did improve torque and performance slightly. The fact that the peak pressure (of combustion) is reduced would improve reliability anyway -- but maybe that is only a little bit ... Very difficult to measure, of course, and a racer/rider might never be aware of these factors during races ....

..Perhaps Aiden and JohnSbantam ...? could find out more in the annals of Aussy racing about this Walsh machine?

...I´ll look up some old Blue and green ones I have tucked away somewhere and see if there´s anything in there.

Cheers!
JayBee.

cheers for the help lads i think ill stick to petrol!! do you know where i can get a race gear box?

cheers mikey

Having dispensed with Methanol, you could of course consider AVGAS it does bring some benefits

And Avgas is "Bantam legal" always the same! ...... and is not changed/adjusted by the fuel companies every month ....

I was going to say earlier -- a dash of TEL, 1% is enough -- and at 11:1 CR, with a 2-stroker you can´t be any better by using straight methanol.
--Victor Martin´s Track Fuel was Methanol and 2% Puridin which was very cold to the touch ... Like ether -- would probably put you out if sniffed too much...!
...Does AVGAS have an additive to increase the ocatane level?
...Don´t forget about gravity retaining your GPS on earth -- it has been known to let go...?
CheerS!
JayBee!

Can be good stuff in two strokes, several of my mates and fellow pre 65 <250 racers use it to good effect. Ginger Molloy in particular is an expert, he has big hP from his engines. The main advantage is cool running, broader torque curve with better low down pulling. The previous comments are quite right, you need huge supply, Ginger has three big fuel taps and a 7mm main jet on his TS350 ! However, I am with Mike P on the health issues; I would rather ingest ethanol in a tasty form and I am already half blind (nothing to do with playing with my self when younger either!) its horrid riding behind the alky burners they spew out eye stinging choking spray and fumes. I did run one of my cast iron barrelled 125s on alky for a few meetings. I ran over 15:1 CR. There is a learning/destruction curve, but I had help from a local expert with 40 years experience. Easy with modern oils, chemicals and synthetic seals etc; use good Klotz 2T oil and run the motor on starting rollers and spray CRC (WD40 in pommie variety) down the carbie before you put the bike on the trailer. I found it pulled away easier with out clutch slip, but you need a really different chamber to get the full advantage.
Herr Bass, we Kiwis are about as far removed from the trans Tasman brothers as you are from the Yanks ! But seriously, I have talked at length to Aussie guys that knew and raced alongside the Walsh machines, they had very tricked out motors (another story), but most of the power came from the alky squashed at 15-16:1 CR. Didn't Andy Tidball run his big finned GT barrelled 185 on methanol to good effect against the 7Rs in VMCC years ago ? best wishes to all, John

Of course it might be easier to use in a warmer climate ? lol. Richard had problems at Taupo last weekend getting R30 to mix with methanol for his DOT, as it was only 14 degrees C early morning. A splash of Klotz from the Jawa boys worked fine. I gather the old guys used to use ether to dissolve the R and no I can not get some from work it is too dangerous ! All our volatiles and vapourisers have sealed valved filler systems, so only the patient gets a controlled dose.

Hey JohnSbantam!
Weird stuff is right! Just a last question -- do you know of that stuff I mentioned: Puridin? -- or maybe spellt slightly different. No doubt that is a trade name...? I guessed at it being a tetra-ethyl-lead derivative. Adding 2% to straight methanol made the difference of leaning-off the main jet by 20% without burning a hole in the piston and according to one Aussy speedway rider (riding in England in 1958 time)
giving a more bumpy power curve (better bottom end torque as you say) on the dyno. My 500 JAP `short-4´ motor bought from Tom O´Connor of Rayleigh Speedway fame was one hell of a handfull in an Enfield Bullet frame -- I rode it again, in a Hagon frame (just the one meeting) many years after retiring and realised my earlier mistake(s) -- the handling in full-lock broadsides was magnificent -- magic! I mean....
...
AW! what the heck -- its only nostalgia, I shouldn´t be bothering you fellows when you are trying to earn a bit more than a crust to go bike racing.
...
..."Without gravity we´d all be floating off to nowhere definite ..."
Mrs JyBee just recently. Now! Try to remember -- GRAVITY!
---
Cheers,
JayBee (for John-Boy trying to behave gracefully)

Controlled doses - when I used to operate model aeroplanes with Compression ign 2 stroke engines, we would use a fuel comprised volumetrically of 47% paraffin, 20% castor oil, 30% Ether, and 3% Amyl Nitrate, or Amyl Nitrite if you couldnt get the Nitrate. Apart from the paraffin, all these ingredients were purchased from the local chemist as a schoolboy, the only resistance being "What do you want it for?" (just try doing that now).

All was going well with one mixing session, in the garage, until I partially inhaled a splash back of Amyl Nitrite I just managed to maintain conscousness but my heart started beating so fast I thought "this is it" - well I'm still here 43 yrs later.

The guys with high output glow motors used a mixture of Methanol, Castrol M, and Nitromethane - smelt pretty good from what I recall.

Jay Bee: Noone seems to have heard of Puridin, probably a tradename. Toluene/Toluol or Ether seem to be the things that were used here. Pete T: We used to use Amyl Nitrate for quick Uterine relaxation at critical time before delivery of babies, it is now banned because of its illicit use to relax the sphincters at the lower of of the GastroIntestinal Tract. We now use Glyceral Trinitrate , perhaps we should do a Burt Monro and drop a few Anginine pills in the Bantam tanks ??

Most nitrates are circulatory system and smooth muscle dilators, faintness due to dropping blood pressure and reduced cerebral perfusion

Much loved by the Gay fraternity (err, so I am told)

Rusty

Hey JohnS...!
I´m a dumb-dumb! Sorry! I had you as being in Australia...

I think JB must be talking about lead tetra ethylene.(the anti knock addative in the old 5 star petrol) Dont go anywhere near it ! A single drop on your skin could kill you.
take care.
Barry

I mentioned "TEL" earlier Barry -- meaning tetra-ethyl-lead. Of course, I have never ever messed with it -- I only know that many of the early petrol companies `doped´their fuel with it (between 1 and 2% was normal) to increase the anit-knock property -- or octane number. The fuss over lead in paint and vehicle exhaust pollution is as you say because of the bad effect on health. Ingess of lead apparently causes brain deteroriation -- nasty!

Cheers! JayBee.

john bass wrote:

Ingess of lead apparently causes brain deteroriation -- nasty!.

So nasty that it could cause some people to think that New Zealand is the capitol of Australia.

Nice one Ned ! I thought it was opposite , that Australia is the Western Island of New Zealand ? Or did the 5 years in Brum cause me to accumulate a lot of lead ?