Championship Points - FAO Mike Powell

Read in Old Bike Mart a short, in fact very short, summary of the recent VMCC Racing Section AGM. Said there was some change to the Championship points scoring system - if so, does it affect us?

Ah well Pete you should of gone along to the AGM!! then you would of known! Talking of which bantam racers were very thin on the ground this year, sometimes i wonder if any of you are interested in the running of British Historic Racing and the things that affect us all? Moan over! (no offence Pete, you normally come!)
Unfortunately our points remain unchanged - but the rest of them(nearly) are going to the points scores we had previously!
I think it is important we keep our own house in order ourselves, rather than having others impose there rules on us...
Regards Mike

Thanks Mike.

I consider myself thoroughly reprimanded

Now, judging by your use of "unfortunately", were they on the verge of dropping 2 rounds?

Cheers,

Pete

That sounds like a good plan Pete. Always thought the old way was best, after all how many years was the old system in place with no complaints until a year or 2 ago.

I do agree with Mike when he says best for us to impose our own rules on ourselves , rather than allowing others to impose upon us.

I dont know how many of you are aware, or appreciate this, but Mike attends pretty much all of the VMCC Historic Racing Section Committee meetings on our behalf. This has the benefit of our class being protected from undue interference, amongst others.

Returning to the subject of dropping rounds - I was fairly neutral either way, but felt we should be in line with the rest of the Racing classes, so voted for all rounds count.

What I have subsequently observed is that we continue to have a double meeting right in the family holiday slot, which knocks out 2 rounds for me. Thus my racing is now less serious as I have no chance of even the top 3 now ( christ what other excuses is he going to come up with now?) No, seriously, I wonder how others feel?

Im with you Pete
why did we change what worked, although racing is one of the most important things in our lives between march and october there will be some of us that has other commitments that mean we miss a meeting or two and the chance of getting a pot at the end of the year. This may be a good thing for the ones that can go to all meetings but we are not doing a world championship we are enjoying what we love to do lets go back to the old way it will be better for all members for bantam racing.

Ian!
and whomever is interested!
I am glad to see that several of you are making yourselves heard among the hierarchical ranks of VMCC & Historic Racing ...

Ian: You should have won a pot for improvement-&-trying in 2007...

OK! So I´m out of it (thank God -- some say-- adding that JayBee ought to curl up and shut up...) and the Bantam was never my idea of a real motorbike for racing (I was always 2 to3 stone too heavy) but I had enormous fun as an Inter watching the likes of your Dad mix it with the other Championship contenders, whilst doing my thing against the Wobbleyman and others of his ilk...

Some of those top dog Champions (of byegone days) had the very best of machinery and assistance that many other Inters and I never had -- nor could have had. So I look at it like this: although I gained very few Championship points in 6 seasons I still did quite well with what I had and was able to do. I have 5 out of 6 pots (one went missing in Canada) which remind me of that... The one reminding of Llandow in the rain is treasured!
And, of course, with all the other committments, at that time, I couldn´t attend ALL the races in any of those seasons. Yes, it is Club Racing and allowance should be made for Clubmen -- as it was in the dropping of a couple of rounds to count in the points ... Yet the critic will say if one wants to do it seriously enough -- one should find the time...
A single day of brilliance doesn´t make a champ -- but that day can be a very special one in the memory... So pots are important.
Fact is, you Bantam racers that are left -- don´t have that mass of Inter riders we had. As Mike intimated, you are very thin on the ground. I see the few 175 racers of now as a near-parallel of the Inters we had in the 60-70s, so I go along with the notion that the 175s must remain classified as Bantams and not put into another class -- as I heard might well happen. Credit should be given to the 175s in view of the disadvantageous differences in the formula.
As Pete & Mike say, as well as several others I´ve heard... you must retain your Bantam identity within VMCC and Historic Racing or you´ll end up being classed as just "... another of those little Old vintage bikes"...
There must be more of us ex-BRC members ready to join in to voice
against any drastic changes by VMCC or Historic Racing...?
.... Seasons´greetings and all the best to you all for 2008! JayBee.

I agree wholeheartedly with the keep Bantams seperate debate. In my mind the Bantam has always been a machine built to a formula. Formula Bantam was and still is to a point, the cheaper way to go racing amongst like minded individuals while still getting the odd outing against more exotic machinery under your belt, just to prove that these little old bikes ain't to be sniffed at. Many of us in the old days had open class races under our belts and I remember with great satisfaction, passing a few Yams, much to their riders annoyance. I've only ridden two Formula machines, Bantams and the Formula one Kwacker, the former held to it's build rules to the letter and still does. Formula one, just like the car equivalent today, was always open to interpretation. To my own and my teams credit, we stuck to the rules but it was hard to not notice the mixing of Avgas and petrol, which was a no no in those days. Probably the closest I got to breaking a rule was riding on cut slicks.
I diversify, sorry about that, anyway, keep Bantams seperate, with their own identity, formula, rules, history and charisma. My pennies worth.

Hi ....
Pete.. no BHR aren't putting drops in ... just making all (bar pre34?) :-
15-12-10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 as we use to be! Which i thought was always good for us in the past. However are points were changed to 20-15-whatever- which means the gaps are actually closer than before.

I notice the people who have been racing many a year(25 continueous in my case) are happy racing with points and systems that were there before! where as new comers and returnees always want to bugger about with it because they can see an advantage for them. And then after a couple of seasons they, themselves 'bugger off' anyway! I've seen it happen twice in 6 years...

JB 'thin on the ground' I was only talking about bantam pilots at the AGM. A well prepared 175 under current rules should be competitive now in the right hands. A 175 won a bantam race outright in 03/04? Fred race at Lydden, I was the pilot and i lapped quicker on it than on my own bike and the 175 in question had a D3/5 frame and back to back bantam front brakes! and Micky Nash was 2nd on his 175 ???? I'm wanting a go on Robbies but he won't let me?? 125s and 175s require only one championship (anyway first 175 home in the championship pick up the Wobblyman Trophy)

Anyway its great to have a debate or two! Its getting like a motorcycle racing club on here......Regards Mike

maybe at some point next year all the bantam racers should get together and make some team decisions about what everybody wants rather than leave it to the few to second guss all the time. good excuse for a proper drink anyway.

MP wrote - "I notice the people who have been racing many a year(25 continueous in my case) are happy racing with points and systems that were there before! where as new comers and returnees always want to bugger about with it because they can see an advantage for them. And then after a couple of seasons they, themselves 'bugger off' anyway! I've seen it happen twice in 6 years..."

For the sake of accuracy, didnt Andy Moulden propose the new points system which was voted on by all the racers ? At that time I think drops were kept as it was a 50/50 split

I believe the change of the drops came about when an AGM proposal to get rid of drops was proposed by Pete and seconded by Ted and a riders poll meant the rules changed by concensus (Mike this may not be 100% accurate can you clarify if not as the posting for this was on the old forum)

None of these are newcomers or returnees although I dont recall if Andy ever got to race under the new rules he was instrumental in getting introduced as he buggerred off to a warmer place.

Perhaps as sort of suggested by Miki there should be a "Bantam racers AGM" at the last meeting of the year where anyone who has entered a race can vote either in person or by proxy on rule changes proposed by riders (proposer and nominee) during the season. This would give everyone an opportunity to comment and maintain the Bantams self governing independence which is a key to its future.

Mike,
If you recall the points system we are on now was proposed by Andy Moulden (not a new starter or returnee) and then democratically voted on by all those who were racing at the time.
The general idea was to make the class attractive to new riders, and to give incentive to the riders further down the field, mainly in the hope of keeping more bums on seats. As far as I can see it is an good way of keeping the interest going as the points create enthusiasm, I believe it has worked well and we will see further benefit from this in the coming seasons.
I am sure that Simon Bell, Ted Smith and Ray Davis etc. etc. are well proud of every point they get... and so they should be, they are all hard won. On the old system points would have been scarce....
Alan

Wow!
You are all stirred up -- great!
Like Miki said -- have a Bantam racers get together. Strengthen the resolve not to be squashed by VMCC & Historic... You are almost there on this web-site...
OK Mike! So you made a 175 lap quicker than a 125. In my opinion that is not very objective to the point raised, which was to keep 175s in the Bantam Class. And certainly doesn´t alter the fact that the 175 formula is simplistic & crude compared with the 125 formula -- OR HAVE the Formulae been CHANGED?
OK - so I shut up!
Cheers! JayBee.

yikes!

i have just missed a class reading this debate! obviously stirred up a lot of emotion. good to see i think. whatever your view about points scoring i think most riders get fired up with competition so i can sympathise with all arguments. my personal feeling, coming from someone who cannot race all year, is that it doesn´t matter if i cannot achieve optimum position at the end of the year. in ted´s words ´as long as i get in the top 12 and then i get on the calendar!!!´. i expect to improve next year, and will stay with the 175 cos i think it´s the most interesting aspect of the bantam section as it is now. whether a 175 will ever challenge the 125s and i agree with MP that a lot has to do with riding and i personally think i can do a lot more with the power i have at the moment in terms of lap times alone with more experience.

in short i don´t look for trophies but the man who is infront of me on the track and above me in the table!!! that´s what gets my juices going!

ray

ps to james cook. my wagon made to spain without a murmur of complaint. are you still interested in taking it off me hands next year!!

hi all at mcdonalds again in middlesbrough at the moment i recon the old system was better two drops would be good. off to the Iom next year to support the riders again looks like i am going to have to miss a meeting or cum back early i missed 1 meeting and had to cum back early last year!!!

I still cant see a good reason for no drops apart from bringing us inline with the vmcc points system i thought we were a club with in a club.

The old system had its advantages for all current riders and in my opion appealed to new riders the fact that if funds are not there to do a hole season or the chance to have a family holiday in the summer came around then you could miss a meeting and keep the hunger for that final championship place.

What about a meeting at the mallory practice day in the cafe to talk over what we all think rather than a phone vote where people will just agree to what ever.

If you can't commit to 7 weekends racing a year then you really have to question your commitment!

It is 20 years since I stopped racing. I raced every weekend from March to October (except TT week, when there didn't ever seem to be a race on anywhere) just because I could. When I rode my Bantam I was restricted to 8 or 9 meetings a year. Round dropping is antiquated. It was introduced to accommodate riders from Eastern Bloc countries who couldn't go back there for fear of incarceration. Not really applicable in this day and age.

You have the dates now, why not work around them and not use them as an excuse for any of the following: bad luck, bad preparation, lack of commitment, lack of dedication, lack of whatever you are lacking.

So you want to go on holiday? Anglesey is nice (usually) in August. True champions are the ones who are committed and dedicated, not the ones who want to go on holiday FFS.

I take photographs at ALL the VMCC meetings. I also do CRMC, Bemsee and the MGP, which pretty well takes up much of my time from March to October. That' because I can. Because I am committed and dedicated. It is hard and time consuming work but I do it because I enjoy doing it, much like bike racing.

Rusty

Well said Russ, when I was chasing championships it was Spain in November for me.

Hi Guys
I think you would be making a mistake if you formed your rules based on what worked or didn't work in the past. Instead you should be using that knowledge to formulate the rules to suit the current situation.

For example
In the 70s & early 80s the BRC had full grids with reserves. So dropping points wasn't a problem, and serious contenders would still go to all the meetings and drop their lowest places.
The BFRC however never had full grids (with the inclusion of cubs)
If there was a clash of dates the grids would be even thiner with riders favoring the BRC meeting.
Consequently the BFRC changed it's rules to all rounds counting. To reward riders for supporting their meetings.

So what suites one club or time wont necessarily suit another club or time.

Amen, sermon over

Hi Ned,

As a young Bantam Novice I remember you holding court to a group of riders and you stressed that "commitment & dedication, long hours in the workshop and a large amount of skill, not just a fast bike will win you a championship”.

This, believe it or not, had a profound effect on me throughout my racing career (and other career's aswell). As a footballer I had a manager who would shout at the top of his voice "The only time success comes before work is in the dictionary!" another maxim I took on in life.

I can't believe that (supposedly) intelligent adults would find the need moan about wanting to drop points in a championship with so few races and weekends that we have now. I mean, it's not like you can go a race elsewhere (competitively) is it?

And before you ask, yes I did manage to win a championship over 16 rounds, all rounds counting.

Rusty

Its great to have a debate isn't it - we can get it all out in the open over the net and inderstand we have different views on many matters that affect us all. Perhaps I've been about to long and remember to much ? Coz all current bantam racers are a newcomer or a returnee! I'm aware what Andy proposed but am also aware of conversations in the Cadwell clubhouse and those there. Andy did then stop racing,Perhaps the points are better now for some in the lower finishing positions(attaining points) It's just I disagree! I have my own views.
Peter suggested no drops - that was his view 13mths ago - now his view is different and thats fine... People do change there opinions...
Russell I know when you raced it was over a short period? of time and you had no wife? and kids? in tow(correct me if i'm wrong Russ), perhaps to keep riders riding for longer periods of time (as Peter and others) or riders with children coming maybe the championship needs to be more understanding of other peoples needs? Many racers give up when a family appear never to return!
Miki,s idea of a bantam AGM? is great and James view that people who race bantams now cast there votes.... on questions raised on the forum. A good time would be Lydden Sunday morning ... any changes to happen for 2009 ... Us bantam racers can decide our destiny of our club within a club ....
Looking forward to hearing more of your views..... Kind regards Mike

I don't think 8 years (every weekend from March to October) is to be considered a short time in anyones opinion!

I gave up because I stopped enjoying the racing. Whether I have a wife or kids in tow is neither here nor there, you either want to go racing or you don't. You either have the money to do it or you don't. It didn't stop Les Judkins that's for sure.

It's like people who have to travel from long distances to race. It doesn't make them any better or worse than any one else. Also if you have raced for 25 years or so it dosen't make you any better than anyone else. Just more experienced that's all. It's what happens on the track is all what matters. Hard luck stories are aplenty (I have loads of those) along with good fortune. However the crux of the matter is that the points gained for the championship should be from all rounds which will also show support for the club at least. Gone are the days of winning the championship after 4 or 5 rounds and then sodding off on holiday. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it wrong. As far as I can ascertain, there are no other club racing championships in the UK which drop rounds.

If there is any valid reason to drop rounds in this day and age I would certainly like to hear of them.

Rusty

Wow!
Wish I was 40 years younger -- I could join in...
JayBee.

So you think you are 40 years older than me eh John ! Gee thanks !

Hey Ned,
Yup -- could be, sometimes feels like it...
Take care, JayBee.