Championship Points - FAO Mike Powell

Go oldies go, As a relative youngster I have been a serious contender in several championships, some have gone by the wayside due to crashes(i was good at that) and some i have done well in, two i have won, second twice, third and fourth(one point dammit). I was totally committed, married no kids(missus on the committee, as was i for a year). I think there are two differant kinds of racers, the first and the most numerable are the guys who race for fun, they pick up the odd pot and get a first ten championship position. God bless em, they are the mainstay of the sport. Then there are the guys who are so ultra competitive that winning races is soon not enough, they want to be best of the year, not just the day. These are the champions. They dedicate, work and live their goal, they settle for second in a race rather than chance that dodgy overtake and sacrifice points, they live and breath it. I was a former fun racer who turned into a single minded, sod the rest of em racer, not proud of it but it happened. I knew bantams were not going to give me the championship because of my lack of engineering prowess and sheer size and weight. I looked at other classes and found success but at the end of the day i had to work 24/7 for it. Dropping rounds is a farce, it deters from commitment and dedication and belongs in the stoneage. Even car F1 ditched it in the 60's. If you want to win championships, this is not a part time sport, do the rounds, score the points. Damn, i'm gonna be unpopular but what the hell. Just because I don't race anymore doesn't mean i'm a fool.

I believe we should do all we can to encourage as many people as possible to be on the grid at every meeting.
The current scoring and Non drops system serves that purpose very well

The scoring rewards new and slower rider by making points available further down the field
The lack of drops rewards riders that are committed to competing in every round

So, I believe it is in the best interest of Bantan racing generally that we stay as we are.

Shouldn´t --- but I can´t leave it be...
You are all making good points-of-view. I like Mick´s -- the mainstay of club racing IS THE ALSO-RANS...
NOT the Super-Stars. They find the time and are so dedicated they become selfish in terms of only thinking of racing and nothing else. Apologies to those who felt the sting of that... It IS TRUE!
....
There are the ones that only club-race 4 or 5 times a year because of other binding committments and do it, on a shoe-string, knowing they cannot possibly get into the top twenty much less the top ten...
There ought to be a pot for the one who tries the hardest with the most obstacles in his (or maybe her...?) way -- but it is not possible to calculate such a thing truly objectively.
That reasoning is why I can look upon my little pots with a degree of pride instead of throwing them into the nearest river -- as I felt like doing before emigrating to Canada. My Bantam was slow. On a particular VMCC day at Brands Niffy came and told me, after practice, that my Bantam was 14th fastest (or slowest if that makes better sense?) -- yet I finished 4th in the race.
OK --OK so I am only copying you fellows that have been telling of your fantastic great days of winning ... 4th place as an "Also-Ran" meant more (to me -- on my Icarus-1... 8,400rpm when the wind was behind...) than if I had won on that fastest... 12,000rpm team-developed, best-of-everything Bantam with his team of mechanics and helpers.
Because of their rarity I can remember exactly those race days where I actually had a helper -- and that was with the 250, at times, as well as the Bantam.
.... Unfortunately there are not enough Bantam racers now to make separate Classes as we had in the old days. We had enough to make an army of Inters... in those good old times.
.... What about having an unofficial "Rooky" class? -- or do you already have such in the so-called Novices section? I guess you already have a
Novice trophy anyway...?
Keep at it,
All the best.... JayBee.

'bout time I had a little poke....
For what it's worth as a wannabee returnee, my individual viewpoint on the championship scoring system:
As it currently stands, a rider is rewarded with points for finishing a race. For me, with a single finish in six meetings spread over three seasons, this is a major achievement.
If I were able to make my motor reliable, it is highly likely that I would be entering more races and ultimately enter every round - even if I was not a leading contender. However, I would expect each of these rounds to count and would arrange my varied and balanced social life around the pre-published race dates. The entry fees are expensive enough as it is without having points deducted.
I say keep the scoring system as is. It's not broke, so don't try to fix it !

On another tack, I believe a matter of some significance for the future of Bantam Racing is the quantity of machines we have crossing the finishing line. This has not achieved double figures in some races. For some competitors, engine reliability appears to be more difficult to find than for others. I suspect engine reliability is a leading reason as to why people lose interest. There are quite a few decent new bikes being built and others being improved. However, without a decent engine it remains to be seen how long these will stay around. The more experienced folk there are willing to assist newcomers and returnees, the better it will be for future continuation of the sport.
Regards
Chris

Great thread

Most as been said, just add that as a very occasional rider it's nice to pick up odd points for finishing and feature on the championship chart.

I vote for keeping it the way it is

Hi Tony,

Thanks for yours and everyone's input.

Just to summarise

Old system was points down to and including 10th place, and drop 4 worst races

New system is points down to 15th place, and all races count.

What about combining the the two? Points down to 15th, and drop 4 rounds? Tony's needs would be met, so would mine and Mike's (I think).

What would be essential is that there should be no detriment in numbers of entries as a result.

With "drops" I think I am in with a chance of 3rd place so I'll do all the meetings except for Angelsey. If I know I'm in with no chance, I'll just cherry pick the meetings, eventually losing enthusiasm, and may well then pack up.

Comments please

Hi Pete and all, yes I think that is a good idea! So to collect points you only have to finish in the top fifteen and I think that many people finishing has only happened a handful of times. If the drops mean you and like minded folk turn up then its a good thing. Of current racers posting on the site there's more wanting drops than not. Stevie F what do you think to Pete's proposal? Mike

By my quick reckoning among the racers on this forum it is 4 for and 5 against - 1 undecided. Although I don't race, I can claim to represent 2 riders who can't / don't get on here and they are against. So that would make 7 against. Put it to a vote.

Rusty

I was confused so re read all the pages my summary would read

4 drops : Mike, Ian , Pete
2 drops Robbie
Keep current system, Myself, Alan, Steve, Tony, Chris
No clear opinion shown, Ray, Miki

(There is a whole debate possible over what constitutes an active racer, but from conversations I have had all the above are hoping to do at least 1 meeting next year, not sure about Miki.)

How about Alan Brown (time permitting) creates a page on the website that collates all the proposals from the year which have a proposer and second.

Final meeting of the year Cadwell, everyone who has raced at least once (Paid and turned up even if not managing to get out ?) gets one vote either in person or by nominated proxy or post (details can be worked out)

As a final thought has anyone reworked the tables to see what difference drops would have made to the 2007 season, what is well documented is that when they were used people who turned up at every meeting did lose positions at the end of the season (PB and SF 2006)

Well done Pete you have got us back to the point of what we were talking about in the first place.

I agree with you, leave the points the same and bring back the drops. We need to keep all current riders and new ones as intrested as possible to keep us going.

just one other thing in the list of people that james has put up to keep the system the same chris and tony say they are ocasional riders so drops would not affect them and the same goes for any other riders that come out a few times a year.

scutty wrote:

just one other thing in the list of people that james has put up to keep the system the same chris and tony say they are ocasional riders so drops would not affect them and the same goes for any other riders that come out a few times a year.

Its true occasional riders are not affected, neither are the usual top two finishers.

However, the real impact is drops do affect the riders who, make the substantial commitment in time and money to turn out at every single meeting and as I think has been commented on numerous occasions really are the backbone of the class.

Are you saying their reward for that commitment should be to lose points and position to riders that dont ?

Hi all Thanks James for your coments- I to re-read them all too and I thought, bearing in mine this was before your todays mail
Mike,Pete,Ian,Robbie drops 4 and 2 respectively
Steve no drops
James, Miki,Alan,Ray,Chris didnt actually say?

So to recap Pete,Ian,Mike 4 drops Robbie 2drops Steve,James no drops Miki,Alan,Ray,Chris and others yet to say......

Robbie the only 2 drop man so how about a vote on drops or no drops only and then if drops are favoured vote on 2 or 4? (would not help Pete or others) I would like to see Pete most of the year - not just when he's cherry picking? and Aiden come to that, so perhaps Ian's Mallory test day as D-day (deciding for 08 season) Last seasons competitors to vote...

Mick Potter,Ted Smith,Phil Betty,Aiden Bent where are you ?

Well done everyone - this now the longest running thread I believe?

Hi again

Just to point out the fact that it will be all riders affected not just the top two i have been one of those who has attended all the meetings and compeated since 1998 james and i are one of those in the middle that you are talking about

i honestly don´t have any strong feeling on the subject. i simply enjoy the competition on the day and achieving best position race by race. the championship is added interest of course and if pushed for a decision i would vote for a every meeting counting.

ray

sorry but i thought i should add a reason!

i think those faithfuls who attend all meetings should be rewarded thus .. if gives the added dimension that consistency can be rewarded as well as out and out speed.

ray

Hi All,
I am definately against drops, it is a sure fire way of reducing the grid sizes, possibly by a lot on some meetings, and creates some very strange points anomalies.
Please support the sport we need to both attract new riders and keep the ones we have, how is loosing points and dropping a place in the table an attractive proposition? especially if you are one of the people who get to be in that position.
There are 18 riders from last year that could fairly vote on the system, I have no problem creating a web voting form for those that have computers available, and sending forms to those that haven't, let us get a representative idea of what we all want, and more importantly, what will attract new people into the sport.
Alan

hi. It's Miki and Phil. Just for the record, we will be both be racing in the bantam class at Mallory next year, and if a vote is on the cards, we will both be voting for no drops, unless of course it is girls pants.

I currently cant make the practice day due to a work commitment in Sweden so my vote would be for keeping points to 15th place and no drops.

Is it a simple majority vote ? or a quorum of 10 or more in favour to change based on last years 18 riders (what a shame we were not all on the grid at one of the meetings)

Hi all
I think pete's got the right idea. on the drops I said two drops but that would not cover a weekend may be four would be right.
last year was the first meeting I missed in 8 years

Robbie

Where's Smiffy? Here I is! I would race ten meetings with BHR if they were there and I could. I race at 60 years of age because I love it and it is fun and did I mention I won a race this year. No drops,no whingers, no excuses. If you love it race, if you don't stay at home and stop complaining. WHEN THE LINEN DROPS THE BULLSHIT STOPS!!!

Go Ted Go, well said mate, I don't remember wingeing in the old days, must be getting senile.

Hi all, I have been watching this debate for a few days now. Most of what I have to say on the subject has already been said, but as Mike has opend up the hornets nest I feel obliged to give it a stir.

With the old points system it was possible for a rider to compete in every race, do no better than 11th and score no points. Another rider could do one meeting, come 10th and appear in the championship table at the end of the year. This is an intolerable situation. Loyalty should be rewarded. Therefore the points system we are using at the moment is much fairer to those people who support our club, but have no realistic chance of winning the championship. I would go even further to propose that should more than 15 people finish a race every finisher should be awarded one point.

As already mentioned in earlier contributions there are riders whose sole aim is to try and win the championship, (I count myself as one) and those who ride solely for the fun, the camaraderie, the challenge and the competition. These riders have no desires to put in the effort that is necessary if you are to win a championship. If this is your purpose you will do everything that you can to ensure you get as many points as possible (points win championships, not race wins). Therefore someone wishing to win a championship will do every round that is possible whether there are drops or not, in order to ensure other people cannot score those points, because at the end of the year the championship may be decided on one point.

Riders that have no aspiration to win the championship will still want to be above riders that they dice with on the track in the championship table - it's only human nature. Therefore every point is also precious to them.

I can see no reason to change the championship points that we have at the moment or to add 'drops' into the calendar as I believe the system we have at the moment encourages both the championship leaders and also those lower down the field.

With regard to the comment on summer holidays - we organise ours within the school holiday, and around the racing calendar. This year is the first time in 4 years that we were unable to go away.

Well done Mick!
It is LOYALTY & REALITY. And the reality is that there are a few of us old (change that to ancient) fools who knew we could never win a championship but we had a go at winning a race when the other things didn´t get in the way. There´s always room for both in club racing. Call it a merit point for finishing -- then at the end of the season gather the merit-finishers points up to see who is the "Merit-Man"... Eh oh! I´ve said too much again... Take it off Mike Pee in `08.
Go well & keep well. JayBee.

Blame it on Mick -- that I am back with a postscript I mean!
OK! -- what about this? Mick made the point of saying a point for finishing... finishing beyond the Championship points is what he implied. So the club-reality-rider competes in as many races as he can and somebody who is detached from VMCC and much attached to BRC decides on the merit of how many finishes from how many starts, along with the F-points gained is the winner of the seasons MM, Merit Medal.
Nuff said, or too much!
Have a good holiday folks!
JayBee!