Winter testing

Well its here again 90 very successful laps completed in good weather and lots of things to think about over the next couple of weeks. 3 bantams were out on track today me rob and a returnee from the past have a look at rubber duck photography and you might be able to work out who it is on my air-cooled?????

Is that 90 laps each?

Did you get a sub lap record lap?

How did the returnee fair ?

Hi mike yes that's each give or take 1 or 2 it felt like lap record pace duffing up r1 ect I forgot to mention michael made a brief appearance before binning it at the elbow but yes the returnee got faster and faster and has got the bug again

Michael is fine by the way forgot to mention

Do we get a prize for guessing correctly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

looked on rubber duck can not see any photo's why not post a link or are you going to keep us all guessing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

hi all photos are now up clues are its a he, as a member on this site, used to do international meatings and the tt on a bantam and had a pudding basion helmet and black leathers?????

my goodness "Mick" go for it my friend.

He who sales through the valley of repent, will bring glorey to thoese he can pursuade to follow, !

"said mathew 19878"

regards Derek

I feel sick with envy -- all these blokes having another go and all I can do is look at this VDU/monitor ....

Iza Hassbin!!

Oi John
lets keep it technical.

All you need is a set of leathers that fit, ask roy bacon if you can borrow his wellingtons, then sit down close your eyes, get comfortable, and dream !.


Best Derek.

Yeah Derek! keeping it technical:-

... were you satifisfied with conclusions & comments made re Heavier Flywheels?

-- what´s this about brazing ports onto barrels -- is that legal by the formula? I have the feeling it was not permitted earlier on...??

Keeping it technical -- I am going to try and send some diagrams -- more than likely you´ll get a load of pictures that are nothing to do with this website at all so don´t blame me if its BORING!

Hi john and all,
John
on me brazing additional transfers onto an iron Barrel John I see no reason why this is against the rules, but please I would be very happy to explain, about the ports, if its suggested this too is illegal, But I'm sure as long as you use the bantam barrel as a base, knocking off fins and adding additional ports is allowed, weather that be additional transfers or exhausts is also ok. this is not allowed on a 175cc.

So I'm not sure your correct there, John.

Certainly John "a great topic to discuss", and we should debate it, so before I opened my mouth any further, I had this confirmed, by a third party, that some changes have been made, but we should continue the debate to clear this, not shove this under the table and hope it goes away, as it will not, and will not let it be.

Lets debate it properly and out in the open.

"what do you think" john. anybody !

Hi james -

pm me we can talk !

Derek Betts.

The statement, as I read it, in the 175 formula -- re cylinder barrels -- on this website indicates no changes externally and states positively that internal changes can be made -- so that´s it I guess....

That´s it! Unless someone in the fraternity decides a democratic vote on these two formulae should be reviewed -- in the light of where the Bantams (from PO telegram bikes) have gone and to where they ought to go.

To my mind -- and I am the original HasBeen here (to be told as every OAP should be told, "Shut up you loser -- go to bed...") I am an ex-Chairman of the BRC and a contributor to the progress of the club (albeit for too short a while!!?) and as such my vote should be heard and I say this:-

On the 125 -- which is basically the REAL Bantam racer -- modern innovations should be permitted, I´d like to see fuel injectors in the transfer ports -- or direct injection in the cylibnder head thus making a proper lubrication system a MUST! and incorporating computer chip control of Air-Fuel mixture etc... as per "Engine Management Systems" which have been in vogue in
automobiles for 3 decades.
There are still interesting innovations not yet tried.

There MUST be another "Low Cost" formula available (otherwise it is not the BRC) and it seems if people are experimenting with odd things in the 175 class it will no longer be Low-Cost racing -- or is that the case already? Is the 175 an expensive racer compared with teh 125??

That why I keep yapping away about having a Naked Bantam formula.

Just one other thing: if there is general concern about Cheating -- look for a volunteer to be extra-curricula scrutineer -- a sort of invigilator who roams the pits at meetings to spy out possible Rule-Breakers. Could become as hated as the East German Stazi (Gestapo) and could also be anonymous as those bast....s were!

You can tell me I lost this one too -- but I am not writing on this web-site to win anything -- and there´s very little left for me to lose....

All"- John

I feel you have written a very fair statement on this matter John,

But I do not agree with the naked Bantam, we have the 175cc class for this.

Derek Betts

I think we have all had enough of this now but I cannot let it go without a comment from a different perspective.

There's a very good reason why Tom Millers bikes go so fast and it can be summed up in one word - skill.

Tom's expertise in the workshop comes from a lifetime in engineering, and (I make it) 46 years working on Bantams with a few more years before that with racing 50's. He has learned through helping dozens if not hundreds of riders by repairing or making their cranks, repairing their gearboxes, machining their crankcases, barrels and heads - all at no cost - just for the love of the sport because he enjoys helping people and loves seeing them having fun and going well on the track.

Of course a fast bike is no use without a fast rider. If a rider can do a 109mph lap of the IOM on a 250 and a 101mph lap on a 125 it should come as no surprise that he can get round Cadwell on a 175 as quick as the likes of Mark Carkeek, Mike Powell and Ian Scutt. Here comes that word again - skill.

I know exactly what is in the 175 in question it's in no way "special" there are no "odd things" it is 100% within the 175 formula and its open to everyone to start with the same Brian barrel that is available to ALL and make it go just as fast.

There's no need to try and get around the rules or spend a lot of money to make a fast 175 - it simply isn't necessary - but it does take effort, dedication and plenty of - "the ability to do something well".

If folks vote to change the formula its my guess the same guys that go fast now will go fast with a new formula - its all down the effort they put in and yes, their skill.

Mick

mscutt wrote:

I think we have all had enough of this now but I cannot let it go without a comment from a different perspective.

There's a very good reason why Tom Millers bikes go so fast and it can be summed up in one word - skill.

Tom's expertise in the workshop comes from a lifetime in engineering, and (I make it) 46 years working on Bantams with a few more years before that with racing 50's. He has learned through helping dozens if not hundreds of riders by repairing or making their cranks, repairing their gearboxes, machining their crankcases, barrels and heads - all at no cost - just for the love of the sport because he enjoys helping people and loves seeing them having fun and going well on the track.

Of course a fast bike is no use without a fast rider. If a rider can do a 109mph lap of the IOM on a 250 and a 101mph lap on a 125 it should come as no surprise that he can get round Cadwell on a 175 as quick as the likes of Mark Carkeek, Mike Powell and Ian Scutt. Here comes that word again - skill.

I know exactly what is in the 175 in question it's in no way "special" there are no "odd things" it is 100% within the 175 formula and its open to everyone to start with the same Brian barrel that is available to ALL and make it go just as fast.

There's no need to try and get around the rules or spend a lot of money to make a fast 175 - it simply isn't necessary - but it does take effort, dedication and plenty of - "the ability to do something well".

If folks vote to change the formula its my guess the same guys that go fast now will go fast with a new formula - its all down the effort they put in and yes, their skill.

Mick

VERRY WELL SAID.

Mick

To both Micks and Mike and anybody else interested --

-- I did not suggest changing any of the two formulae, JUST NOW! -- I suggested having a new formula that might attract more new starters by being more like the original BRC formula which was really taking a REAL Bantam and hacking bits off it, performing miracles on the engine to get it from 4.8hp at 5,000rpm to giving over 12 horsepower at 8 to 9,000rpm and having like-minded young fellows with almost identical performance and shod machines competing against each other such that they are still racing at the end and not feeling too out of things by being lapped in a 4 lap race.***

And speaking of handling! Did you know that back in those Good Old Days there were several solid back end Bantams being RACED? There was one such at the 2005 anniversary Lydden meeting which I nearly nicked for the parade but the old chap would not let me have it because he wanted to parade it himself. Re handling with a solid back end? he said so what? In those days it was semi-competitive
and great fun, besides which the track is smooth ....!!

Reading thro´the lines on here suggests that none of you currently racing Bantams wants to see that old formula resurrected -- sort of retrograde and definitely Old Hat!!


***that is still happening -- I imagine!!

Hi John.

I think you idea for a new lowwer spec Bantam formula is worthey of discussion. It may give new starters the opetunity to race without felling compeatly out clased because they are not directly competing with the outher formula,but what a feather in thier cap if they beat some one in a higher formula (remember novice, inter, sienior ).

From observation in the padock, every single Bantam racing at the present time compleatly complies with the rules as they are weather they be 125's or 175's. It very important to reamember that when deciding to partake in any sporting event (whatever that sport may be) you implicitly aggree with those rules. If you dont like the rules or think they are not in the spirit of the original rules don't complain after you have joined the competition. Whatever type of competition you indulge in it's vital you fulley reed the rules & remember that whatever the sport is, IF IT IS NOT SPACIFALY BANED IT IS BY OBMISSION ALLOWED. If somthing is not baned someone WILL try it.

If the fomulas that we have at the moment are changed then every bike on the grid will become ilegal overnite.

We cant take a retrospective step but may be able to start a lowwer spec formular (maybe naked).

Mick.

Thanks Mick!
The BRC as it exists today certainly needs newcomers.

And you are right -- as a lowly Novice or Inter it just had to be the icing-on-the-cake to beat a Senior in those Good Old Days!!
A good bit of rain made all the difference!!

It must be quite difficult for a scrutineer at these Historic/Vintage events to be "on the ball" with every different make of old bike that´s being raced but knowing so many of the blokes who participate (have participated) in these events I doubt if there are many cheats.

Cheers!

Novices and inters had their own races so it was unlikely they would get blown away.
Contrary to some peoples belief one of the main reasons for introducing fairings was to make Bantams look more up to date and attract more young blood. How would introducing a new formula of unskirted unattractive uncompetitive machines that would be blown into the dust bring new blood into the sport ?
For any one who begrudges any success earned by the many late nights producing the SMS Bantams and believes they spoiled the formula obviously don't know. Tom's number one bike ridden by Pete Styles was probably the fastest Bantam around but I can assure you it wasn't the quickest as I'm sure Berny Webster, Mark Carkeek, Mick Cashmore and a few others could confirm. Toms bikes had good top end speed but those guys definitely had more grunt lower down.
End result = Some bloody good racing.

Mick Potter wrote:

Hi John.

From observation in the padock, every single Bantam racing at the present time compleatly complies with the rules as they are weather they be 125's or 175's.+IF IT IS NOT SPACIFALY BANED IT IS BY OBMISSION ALLOWED. If somthing is not baned someone WILL try it.

If the fomulas that we have at the moment are changed then every bike on the grid will become ilegal overnite.

Mick.

Hi all I dont make many comments but feel had to respond to Mick

"Hi Mick" Sorry I do not agree with you" in fact I think ur talking through the small orifice behind you, But I loved your topic on frames especially forks, I suggest you stick to this as like other we all have an opinion that is not all shared by the "Tom Miller fan club" I feel most people have a great deal of respect for Tom, This is not what Derek and i BELIEVE A FAIR FEW HAVE SAID, so stop trying to defend Tom Miller "he does not need to be",

There are a difference of opinion on this. some people on here believe the casting are different, so may be illegal with the mods that have taken place, if we had debated the topic maybe we will have found out actually there are not 4 transfers, as suggested By Mike Powells post, that had me rocking in my chair, but actually Tom Has I believe through the grape vine confirmed that actually there are 2 Transfers made into 4 by adding a bridge.


From My mind this is totally ilegal, as Derek Betts says, we are not all idots so dont believe there is not any advantage in doing this, otherwise why would he do it. what Derek Has said not everyone has the facilities to do this type of mod and the formula was never designd for this type of mod.

just one more point" from memory you have never built a Bantam always raced other peoples, "but more important you dont race a Bantam anymore" so what has this debate got to do with you".

If I were you I would like to see the opinion of other who have built or are building 175cc bantams on this before I pass it over to "cheer leaders"

Best and Kind Regards

Terry

Deleted -- no wish to engage in spiteful nonsense.

good evening Terry, nice to have you registered and intrested.

However

Your response to Mick is totally unjustified and i think a little more fact finding in to what he has done and is doing in relation to development and building would before comenting would be worthwile,not to mention yor coments on the one person that has spent most of his life developing and promoting bantam racing ( as helping your son and you with many problems FREE OF CHARGE.)

I would also like to say as a father my self would stick up for my son or daughter no mater what i would back them but i feel the pair of you have crossed the line and are not doing the racing or forum anything for the better.

By the way, how is development of the ally barrell that u have for Edd going? does not confirm to any rules as stated on the website i know.

Ian! Time to get this debate back on a sensible track:-

Have you any idea at what speed the streamlining becomes effective? and would you be prepared to do a "coast-down" test next time you are out testing?

(a) With fairing:-
If you are on a flat, straight stretch of road -- no wind, mind! -- get to 60mph, cut the engine at the first marker and remain in race postion until the second marker 100 yards further on is passed....
Need a couple of helpers for this to establish the time in seconds for coast-down from 1st to 2nd marker.
(b) Without fairing:-
Still in racing position, of course, repeat the above.

repeat (a) & (b) 3 times.

This should enable the coefficients for air drag (as well as your own bike´s Rolling Resistance) to be eastablished and give an idea of the aerodynamic efficiency of all streamlings.
N.B. -- essential no wind for this testing.

I do not think you will do it -- but if you do would you please post the results on here, please.


Well remembered is a Cadwell meeting: The wind was so harsh that instead of Club Circuit we had to do the Woodland(?) Circuit instead. That was after a Bantam rider*** was completely blown off the road between Charlies and Park Corner....

Well! at least we´ve stopped trying to insult each other!!

Someone (cannot remember his name) said that motorcycle streamlining became effective at 15mph? Perhaps that was with a 30mph headwind??

***I think they called him Sticky -- or something??

hi john nostalga is i wonderfull thing but you have got to let it go we will run fairings and try on every level to improve engine performance (WITH IN THE RULES).

Sadly we do not have a wind tunnel so every munite on track i want to improve the charastics of the engine and prove that all the works behind the scenes is as it should be.